View Full Version : Scotsac Branch Instructor Course
Scotsac are planning to run a BI course on Saturday 21 July 2007. I know this because I have been phoning them on a monthly basis to find out if they have set any dates.
Last month they told me the dates they had set for this year. I phoned again yesterday as nothing has so far been posted on the web site. They told me that as they didn't have much interest in the course they probably would not be running it. It seems to me that they should be posting dates for these courses on the web site - especially since they still have last year's dates on it. People are not telepathic.
Anyway, they need 6 to run the course. If anyone is interested, could you please give Scotsac a call and put your name down.
Cheers
Claire
Cheers, Claire.
We have a few candidates in our branch that may be keen.
I should be seeing the BI Course Director tonight so will mention your comments to him. :)
Cheers, Claire.
We have a few candidates in our branch that may be keen.
I should be seeing the BI Course Director tonight so will mention your comments to him. :)
If you're seeing him could you mention that Gas Guzzler also wants to do the BI course but will only be 17 months qualified by the date of it (think you're meant to be 18 months qualified). Is this ok?
Thanks
Scottish Sub Aqua Club
Branch Instructor Course
Course Dates 2007-2008
Saturday 9th June 2007 SSAC HQ
Saturday 21st July 2007 SSAC HQ
Saturday 8th September 2007 Napier University, Edinburgh
Saturday 10th November 2007 SSAC HQ
Saturday 26th January 2008 SSAC HQ
Branches may request other courses dates where sufficient numbers are available to attend. Contact the BI Course Director for further information.
Claire, I've PMed you re. GG.
It is my view that the removal of the pool session from the BI course has greatly devalued the course.
Dive Tramp
26-09-07, 01:02
The "new " requirement for Sports Divers to be qualified for 18months and have a further 75 dives under their belt was one of the reasons I left ScotSAC. I had just qualified as a SD, Feb 2006, and was looking forward to being able to give my small club a helping hand with the training as we had only two Instructors available (you can imagine the actual amount of openwater diving that was possible with that ratio of Inst to Students). However, of course, it would take me several more years to get 75 dives at the rate we were able to get out with the club. At the club AGM the DO asked who had managed more than 20 (yes twenty!) dives that year! Only myself and my buddy held our hands up! The DO (the only other instructor!) had only done 15 dives!
I fully appreciate that instructors should have some experience, but this "new " requirement will kill off small clubs who can't accept new students coz they can't get enough instructors thro'. The best time to train someone to be an instructor is quite clearly when their training, and how it was delivered, is still fresh in their minds. I speak as highly qualified instructor in a dive related field, and as an Assistant Diving Instructor with BSAC.
I actually don't disagree with the 75 dives for instructor training. I think it's important to gain confidence in the water and it's unlikely that someone with say 25 dives will have the same confidence as someone with 75 dives. Most active divers should be trying to get in at least 50 dives a year in my opinion, to stay dived up. I've been diving for just over 3 years and I would say it's only in the last 18 months that I have become very comfortable in the water. When I was newly qualified, I was quite apprehensive at the start of a dive, although I would settle within a couple of minutes.
Given the responsibilities in taking trainees into the water, I don't think 75 dives is excessive. It scares me slightly that Padi Divemasters only have to have 20 dives to start training - that's not a lot of dives.
The 18 month rule is perhaps a little harsher - as I said, GG has only been qualified as a sports diver for about 19 months, but has around 150 dives and through all these dives, is very confident in the water.
As regards numbers of dives completed & length of qualification, there can be some flexibility, at the discretion of the Regional Coach & BI Course Director.
In our uni club, we have a high turnover of membership & our ScotSAC Regional Coach & colleagues are very helpful in doing everything they can to facilitate training of Sport Divers & BIs.
I know from visiting the ScotSAC(!) branch at Limerick University that they feel the same. ScotSAC Regional Coaches made a special trip over to Ireland last month to run the BI course for their members.
If ScotSAC members are interested in doing the BI course but don't fulfil any of the criteria, feel free to discuss the issue with your BDO who can liaise with your Regional Coach. ScotSAC want good keen divers to train as instructors: it's the life blood of any such agency.
Yup, 20 to start but much more to complete. Dm's are also only assisting, not teaching so a distinction has to made between levels of involvement. At 20 dives you start your DM training, you are not a DM but working towards it. The only way to get the experience is to be in the water. With regards to the 75 dives, PADI instructor's need 100 dives before being able to start the course, some sort of minimum dive requirement is needed I think, what it is and should be i have seen open to debate often and various numbers bandied about. Again this is all relative. What construes the best learning experience? 100 dives with an experienced buddy learning all the time at various depths or 100 dives no less than 10 mtrs with your mate who is also newly qualified. Thes are extreme examples but pose an important question. Both scenarios mean you can then do the instructors courses. What is the possible experience level of both scenarios and the subsequent transfer of skills/experience. It's a thinker :)
From personal experience I am one DM who started realtively early although more than the minimum 20 required. I learned more, quicker and better doing this as an internship than i would ever have done diving by myself. There are pros and cons in all things.
W
;)
Given the responsibilities in taking trainees into the water, I don't think 75 dives is excessive. It scares me slightly that Padi Divemasters only have to have 20 dives to start training - that's not a lot of dives.
It is my view that the removal of the pool session from the BI course has greatly devalued the course.
I agree, why remove an essential part from a course when trainees learn in a pool?
I agree, why remove an essential part from a course when trainees learn in a pool?
As you know, trainee instructors still have to do lots of time in the pool; but just not during the one day introductory course anymore.
That's where the club system comes into its own: plenty of back-up: both intra- & inter-branch (hopefully).
We've had lots of assistance from our Regional Coach in training both trainee divers & trainee instructors.
When I did the BI course, I quite enjoyed the pool session that was still part of the course at that time but I can see that it maybe didn't represent the best use of resources. We had to sit through a load of lectures & then rush to the pool to rattle through a number of skills. Exciting, but maybe not the best way to learn. I personally found it more constructive at subsequent club pool & open water sessions where I shadowed other instructors and got a chance to progress at a more intuitive pace.
Just my experience, but I see where you're coming from on this.
Pool sessions should be a part of the BI course it was in mine and very valueable part of the days course..(Just my penny,s worth you understand :p )
One of the problems with training instructors is 'dilution' of skills.
It is reckoned that a trainee will pick up about 60% of instruction unless some sort of reinforcement is carried out.
This can be done by:
Shadowing known good instructors after the course, (This may not always be possible).
Working through known difficult skills in a controlled manor (pool session).
The latter has advantages in that the instructors at the pool session are 'current' and should be teaching & demonstrating current best practice.
If it is good teaching practice to demonstrate skills then this also must apply to the training of instructors.
i got one of my b.i. open water assessments done on sunday over at the sailing centre cumbrae as it was a regional instructor weekend there was a lot of management about . they picked the site , the monument north of the island . it must be one of the worst entrance /exits . the trainees and instructors were all nackered by the time we climbed out. thats one out of the way thou , also got my master diver signed off as well . never ceases to amaze how long a day it can be not back till 8.30 pm and i only live in stewarton.
I hope you enjoyed your day and congratulations on your achievement but:
Entries & exits for training should generally be easy.
It is bad practice for instructor assessment to be carried out during an instructor training course because:
The 'top instructors' prim responsibility is to assess & monitor the course attendees, it is also they who perform the BI assessment. The net result is that there is the possibility the neither tasks will be carried out to the highest standards.
I hope you enjoyed your day and congratulations on your achievement but:
Entries & exits for training should generally be easy.
It is bad practice for instructor assessment to be carried out during an instructor training course because:
The 'top instructors' prim responsibility is to assess & monitor the course attendees, it is also they who perform the BI assessment. The net result is that there is the possibility the neither tasks will be carried out to the highest standards.
"Entries & exits for training should generally be easy"
If the BI thinks the site is not suitable he should say so.
I don't understand what you have said here...A regional coach will asses a BI and a BI will asses a sport or master diver.
You said "It is bad practice for instructor assessment to be carried out during an instructor training course because:"
When is a beter time...?
If you mean top instructors are regional coaches, then they will asses how a BI will train and monitor the situation and if its not done safely they will stop the assesment.
Given the responsibilities in taking trainees into the water, I don't think 75 dives is excessive. It scares me slightly that Padi Divemasters only have to have 20 dives to start training - that's not a lot of dives.
I've just completed AOW at Puffin, I now stand at 28 dives, one of which was a deep dive (29.9m), I'm now qualified to 30m but am aware that I need to build up experience to match the qualification.
One thing that my instructor said was that Puffin would recommend having at least 40 dives before seeking higher qualifications. To be honest, I would agree with that recommendation. My girlfriend used to tease me that she was AOW while I was only OW which I would counter with quoting bottom time and breadth of experience. Given that we now hold the same qualification and my logbook has so much more breadth of experience I can see visits to dive shops for gear becoming a priority (she's very competitive!).
Al.
I've just completed AOW at Puffin, I now stand at 28 dives, one of which was a deep dive (29.9m), I'm now qualified to 30m but am aware that I need to build up experience to match the qualification.
One thing that my instructor said was that Puffin would recommend having at least 40 dives before seeking higher qualifications. To be honest, I would agree with that recommendation. My girlfriend used to tease me that she was AOW while I was only OW which I would counter with quoting bottom time and breadth of experience. Given that we now hold the same qualification and my logbook has so much more breadth of experience I can see visits to dive shops for gear becoming a priority (she's very competitive!).
Al.
I totally agree about experience and not trying to run before you can walk. Although my first qualification of sport diver qualified me to 30m I wasn't confident about diving to that depth until late last year/early this year - about the time I hit 100 dives.
Throughout this year I have gradually extended my depth and now feel quite comfortable planning a dive to 30ish metres. I have 2 assessments left on my master diver syllabus plus the exam so hopefully will get that soon. How about some training Ding?!
I totally agree about experience and not trying to run before you can walk. Although my first qualification of sport diver qualified me to 30m I wasn't confident about diving to that depth until late last year/early this year - about the time I hit 100 dives.
Throughout this year I have gradually extended my depth and now feel quite comfortable planning a dive to 30ish metres. I have 2 assessments left on my master diver syllabus plus the exam so hopefully will get that soon. How about some training Ding?!
Yep organize a day when I'm not busy....no probs
I totally agree about experience and not trying to run before you can walk. Although my first qualification of sport diver qualified me to 30m I wasn't confident about diving to that depth until late last year/early this year - about the time I hit 100 dives.
Yep I agree with that to. I'm at about 70 dives and can say that 30m is just getting comfortable on a good day.
I set a personal limit of at least 100 dives before I go for Nitrox. Which now I think is looking reasonable. 40 dives wouldn't have prepared me for longer deep dives. And I'm thinking 150 dives before I go advanced nitrox/deco
Yep I agree with that to. I'm at about 70 dives and can say that 30m is just getting comfortable on a good day.
I set a personal limit of at least 100 dives before I go for Nitrox. Which now I think is looking reasonable. 40 dives wouldn't have prepared me for longer deep dives. And I'm thinking 150 dives before I go advanced nitrox/deco
I'm at 180 dives now and am looking at advanced nitrox now. GG did basic nitrox a week after he qualified as a sport diver - but we were off to the Maldives and nitrox was free. Even diving at 20m, for repetitve diving it's really useful.
I was a conscientious objector to Nitrox in the Maldives. As you say, it was free where we dived too, but I didn't bother as Jennifer can't get her card until .....? and my dad didn't have his either.
I was a conscientious objector to Nitrox in the Maldives. As you say, it was free where we dived too, but I didn't bother as Jennifer can't get her card until .....? and my dad didn't have his either.
you can still use it on an air profile just so long as you keep an eye on your MOD. makes you feel better & is proven to be safer at shallow depths.
back to the thread...
75 dives is IMHO an ok-ish standard, perhaps even more should be required first.
this i assume is based on both sides of the coin where by you could have an ex-royal marine in your club & a spotty teenager who works in Tesco's stacking shelves.
one is more likely to be competent while the other may lack well behind, so 75 is probably based on the average 'Jo'.
there are people out there who dont have a BI card but are more than capable of training people & yup... they are out there doing it.
you can still use it on an air profile just so long as you keep an eye on your MOD. makes you feel better & is proven to be safer at shallow depths.
Definitely makes you less tired.
I set a personal limit of at least 100 dives before I go for Nitrox. Which now I think is looking reasonable. 40 dives wouldn't have prepared me for longer deep dives. And I'm thinking 150 dives before I go advanced nitrox/deco
Scott my advise would be to get the nitrox ticket asap,you can do a dry course now for around £70,it's well worth it especially doing square profile dives,och well at least at hodges close you'll be up first........... mines a cider :D
Well, I've just been phoned to be told that the BI course on Saturday has been cancelled as there were not enough people booked on it - the second time this has happened to me this year. By my reckoning, it means only 2 BI courses have gone ahead this year, both when I was on holiday - I've been trying to do this course for months now.
I know it's not Scotsac's fault that there isn't much interest but surely there is something that could be done to encourage more people to do the course - looks like it's going to be end of January 2008 for me now, if that one goes ahead.
That's a great pity :mad:
A few of our members were wanting to attend the BI course on Saturday also :o
That's a great pity :mad:
A few of our members were wanting to attend the BI course on Saturday also :o
I was told there was one other person booked on. Andrew Murray also mentioned that one club had intimated that a few of their members wanted to attend, but none had sent in their forms - he said he had chased them a few times but there was only so much he could do.
I was told there was one other person booked on. Andrew Murray also mentioned that one club had intimated that a few of their members wanted to attend, but none had sent in their forms - he said he had chased them a few times but there was only so much he could do.
Yip, those were our guys I'm afraid to say. I've been chasing them up for the last month to send their forms in. Shame that you've missed out as a result of their apathy.
Have you any ideas how these courses could be publicised more successfully? The course dates have been on the web site for a while & an ad was placed in Scottish Diver. Seems as if it's probably up to BDOs & branch training officers to select BI candidates & encourage their attendance.
Yip, those were our guys I'm afraid to say. I've been chasing them up for the last month to send their forms in. Shame that you've missed out as a result of their apathy.
Have you any ideas how these courses could be publicised more successfully? The course dates have been on the web site for a while & an ad was placed in Scottish Diver. Seems as if it's probably up to BDOs & branch training officers to select BI candidates & encourage their attendance.
I'm not sure what they should do - I definitely think BDOs and committees should do all they can to encourage people to go for their BI. Our BDO does. It would probably help if Scotsac got their dates correct as well - I had to phone up and ask them what date the course was - one part of the website said November and the other December - it was corrected after my call.
Well, I've just been phoned to be told that the BI course on Saturday has been cancelled as there were not enough people booked on it - the second time this has happened to me this year. By my reckoning, it means only 2 BI courses have gone ahead this year, both when I was on holiday - I've been trying to do this course for months now.
I know it's not Scotsac's fault that there isn't much interest but surely there is something that could be done to encourage more people to do the course - looks like it's going to be end of January 2008 for me now, if that one goes ahead.
Sorry to here that Claire, as you say maybe next year.
Hi Claire,
Really sorry we had to cancel, Scotsac like all clubs relies on willing volunteers like yourself so it is extremely disappointing to have to let people down like this. We have spent the last couple of weeks trying to encourage prospective members from other branches to sign up but without success. I hope this doesn't put you off and we will try hard to get a few more to come on the next course.
Hi Claire,
Really sorry we had to cancel, Scotsac like all clubs relies on willing volunteers like yourself so it is extremely disappointing to have to let people down like this. We have spent the last couple of weeks trying to encourage prospective members from other branches to sign up but without success. I hope this doesn't put you off and we will try hard to get a few more to come on the next course.
Hi Jack
Thanks for your message. As I said, I know it's not Scotsac's fault and I know there are also a couple of people at my club who want to do the course - one couldn't manage this weekend and the other is my other half, who has one more master diver dive leader to get signed off before he has all the prerequisites. Hopefully by January, this will be done.
As for lack of potential BIs, what does everyone think puts people off doing this? Is it not wanting to give up dive time to teach trainees or the increasingly litigous society that we live in or something else?
Claire,
perhaps people are put off by the time of the year, less people are diving, its cold for some & Christmas is just around the corner.
some people only get to dive once a week (the traditional Sunday), some even less.
giving up their time to teach on these rare days might be a little off putting, perhaps even selfish.
teaching is not for everyone, some people just want to dive for themselves.
the ever increasing 'litigious society' we live in is another can of worms......
pretty sure you will get your day, all good things come to those who wait.
in the mean time, your still learning more yourself.
Claire,
perhaps people are put off by the time of the year, less people are diving, its cold for some & Christmas is just around the corner.
some people only get to dive once a week (the traditional Sunday), some even less.
giving up their time to teach on these rare days might be a little off putting, perhaps even selfish.
teaching is not for everyone, some people just want to dive for themselves.
the ever increasing 'litigious society' we live in is another can of worms......
pretty sure you will get your day, all good things come to those who wait.
in the mean time, your still learning more yourself.
The BI course is a one day classroom course, followed by pool sessions before you get anywhere near open water - time of year shouldn't come into it really. Having it at this time of year is surely better than during the summer when people are more likely to be on holiday (the reason the July one was cancelled).
The BI course is a one day classroom course, followed by pool sessions before you get anywhere near open water - time of year shouldn't come into it really. Having it at this time of year is surely better than during the summer when people are more likely to be on holiday (the reason the July one was cancelled).
the BI course is 4 hours of skill training followed by 4 hours of disclosure Scotland & then a pool session, or at least the one i did a few years back was.
perhaps the time of year is not an issue as you say, perhaps it's just the numbers.
SSAC have run quite a few BI courses over the last few years so perhaps the abundance of 'would be BI's' have passed through the system now & numbers are now thin on the ground.
when i did mine, i had to wait for a place on the course so it looks like things may have changed.
good luck with your trying...;)