View Full Version : The Caves: access issues
nothin if not permanent will no doubt 'vanish' at some point or another.
someone in the past has attempted to lay some mortar treads which may help some divers.
these will crumble eventually & become part of the dive site itself.
if anyone wanted good access it would require a little work.
without giving too much away, i am amongst other things, a joiner to trade.
if some people would like to get involved i would be willing to make shutters to form the moulds for steps, or at least platforms.
these would have to be filled with concrete & this would be quite a bit of work.
a van & materials (sand, cement & chips) would have to be taken up.
assumable hand mixed unless someone willing has a portable petrol 1/2 bag mixer.
can anyone access materials free gratis?
so... anyone up for the challenge?
anyone offering labour?
names.......
1. stewart
2.Tomy2tums
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
perhaps i have too many numbers...:D
can anyone access materials free gratis?
so... anyone up for the challenge?
names.......
1. stewart
2. Tomy2tums
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
perhaps i have too many numbers...:D
I'll put in some cash for the materials. Do we need a new rope in the mean time? I'm at work for the next 2 weeks, so fix a date.
Oh, can someone take some photos and post em, so we know what were are dealing with.
Anyone got a trailer?
this is the access down to the water.
its a lot steeper in real life!
http://www.congeralley.com/sites/thecaves_files/image007.jpg
pic from the ca guide.
this is the access down to the water.
its a lot steeper in real life!
http://www.congeralley.com/sites/thecaves_files/image007.jpg
pic from the ca guide.
Oh, FFS.......
I'll put in some cash for the materials. Do we need a new rope in the mean time? I'm at work for the next 2 weeks, so fix a date.
Oh, can someone take some photos and post em, so we know what were are dealing with.
Anyone got a trailer?
Got a trailer, mini stub axles on leaf springs, plywood floor, tongue & groove sides, floor plan 4'x 5', sides 3' high. Lid half fixed, piano hinge allows back half to flip up & over. Fine for transporting materials, tools etc but no use for a cement mixer!
Trailer pulled by a Rover 418 turbo diesel, so sufficient pulling power for most loads.
A list of dates would be good as I work variable shifts.
On a similar subject, as well as improving access to a fave site, are there "enviro-positive" projects we could undertake as a group? Always good to raise the ecology credentials of a group of like-minded individuals. Or we could do a group dive to clean up a popular dive site, removing fishing line and other suchlike hazards and gain a bit of publicity within the diving community.
Al.
this is the access down to the water.
its a lot steeper in real life!
http://www.congeralley.com/sites/thecaves_files/image007.jpg
pic from the ca guide.
EEK!
:eek:
I'll drive the car that tows the trailer, others can negotiate the North Face of the Eiger with tools and buckets of concrete!
Note to self: remember not to agree to a Caves dive until the access is fixed!
alexmaclennan
09-03-07, 09:28
Forget steps and ropes/ bannister.
Cement in a waterslide - permanently 'on' because of the stream. Kit up at the car. Jump onto your own personal skeleton bob. Three seconds later you're shot into the water, possibly on top of Beryl :eek: .
Sorted ;)
But how do you then get back out??
alex
Lizardland
09-03-07, 10:31
There are a few sites in France that I dive at where divers have tried to improve access. They are good at the start but the problem comes after a year or two when they've been exposed to the elements and start going wrong. One in particular ended up more treacherous than the unaltered access was and they had to demolish the walkways.
In caves in similar situations they put handlines which are permanently bolted to the rock with either expansion bolts or resin anchors. If you've got a cordless hammer drill you can bolt a route quickly, doing it by hand with self-driving anchors is bloody slow and boring.
The resin anchors are stainless:http://w01-0504.web.dircon.net/pdc/eco.jpg
The expansion bolt type:http://img.epinions.com/images/opti/1d/c6/Petzl_Coeur_Goujon_Stainless_Steel_Hanger_Bolt_Cli mbing-resized200.jpg
Once the anchor is in place then you permanently tie in a line. It's a much lower impact on the looks of a site.
I might have a few expansion anchors lying around but I doubt it, they are fairly cheap too. I've got a load of heavy duty caving rope knocking around as well.
Cheers,
Stuart
I'm going up there tomorrow - i'll replace the rope :rolleyes:
I'm going to play devil's advocate here... :eek:
I can see where you're coming from & admire your enthusiasm for wanting to improve the site. Might it be worth considering some counter arguments that could be raised?
This site is not only used by divers but also by anglers.
Making it more accessible will encourage greater use by them with their commensurate hazards. Recent improved access to Furnace Quarry didn't work out well with the anglers (purportedly) causing litter nuisance and resulting in site access being restricted for everyone.
This is not the safest of dive sites, even apart from the access difficulties. Slippy rocks, poor viz, steep drop-offs, depth, lots of fishing line (some of which is entwined in fallen trees). At the moment, many inexperienced divers would be put off by the difficult access. Making it easier may make it more appealing to less qualified divers.
On that note, there is limited parking at the site. Making it easier to dive & fish will make it harder to get a space on a good night (selfish but true).
Whose land is it anyway? The owner might not want the shore being made more accessible: this might explain the previous removal of ropes.
The access isn't actually too difficult as it stands (IMHO :rolleyes:). Last time I was there, Gord skipped down with his 12L + pony in about 30 seconds flat despite a raging torrent in the stream. It took me a couple of minutes with my twin 12s but wasn't a major hassle. The section within the tunnel is quite easy without a rope IMHO (I've never seen rope at that point). The section below the tunnel does benefit from having a rope: especially when it's been raining. Stuart's idea of placing a permanent line there would seem ideal. Compared with Weasel Loch at low tide, it's a skoosh!
These are just some thoughts... please don't shoot me!! :o
This might sound defeatist, but even using those anchor thingmes its still gonna require rope, which seems to be the bit that goes missing.
Steps are a good idea, the other site that would benefit easier access is twin pies as climbing up that wall on dodgy wobbly steps is a right nightmare in twin 12's :D
As i do shifts i'd be willing to lend a hand when im off work.
I'm going to play devil's advocate here... :eek:
I would agree with you Charlie. I doubt the land owner, or council if it is council maintained would want these ideas implemented. Apart from the issues Charlie has raised, there are also occupier's liability issues. If the 'new access' fails and someone is injured, there could be problems with the liability issue.
Last time I was there, Gord skipped down with his 12L + pony in about 30 seconds flat despite a raging torrent in the stream.
Actually it was a 15L ...
:cool:
Actually it was a 15L ...
:cool:man mountain! :D
This might sound defeatist, but even using those anchor thingmes its still gonna require rope, which seems to be the bit that goes missing.
Steps are a good idea, the other site that would benefit easier access is twin pies as climbing up that wall on dodgy wobbly steps is a right nightmare in twin 12's :D
As i do shifts i'd be willing to lend a hand when im off work.
Now we know who ate all the pies!
:p
Now we know who ate all the pies!
:p
Steak please
Lizardland
09-03-07, 15:33
I'm going to play devil's advocate here...
Must admit, I agree.
I don't like seeing sites getting altered dramatically either.
As Charlie says, it's a good way of keeping people that might not have the experience out as well.
In a club that I'm a member of, getting yourself in and out the water is something that forms part of whether or not you get the qualification.
I don't think it's an especially hard entry either. Keep a length of rope in the car in case it's gone.
This:
http://www.wreck-diver.de/Berichte/France_1/landn_5.JPG
is a difficult entry :)
I would agree with you Charlie. I doubt the land owner, or council if it is council maintained would want these ideas implemented. Apart from the issues Charlie has raised, there are also occupier's liability issues. If the 'new access' fails and someone is injured, there could be problems with the liability issue.
Yeah, we wouldn't want the access to be blocked off completely by an anxious land-owner! :eek:
MOD reef, Powmill Quarry, 5 wrecks & Furnace Quarry have all had their accessibility limited recently. Don't want the Caves to join the list. :mad:
I have a Ford Transit Van would would be suitable for bringing materials to the site and I don't mind putting in some time if its a help for whatever is decided in the end. As mentioned above though it might just be a good idea to bring ur own rope.
Planning of diving there tomorrow as well so might see ya there
Willing to lend a hand, however one thing you need to be aware of any structure/steps you put in will disrupt the water flow and could affect things in and around the site. The concrete blocks and bricks that have been cemented in recently have gone some way and the rope that was there recently were great, so maybe just an additional couple of bricks and a more permanent rope system would resolve.
Count me in though to help.
am i actually reading this??
personally i have never had a problem with the access when i dived with a single, twin set or twins & stage.
the max bottom depth is 32m on high tide, a redical technical divers dream no doubt.:rolleyes: or perhaps just 'sport diver' level diving.
FFS is casting a few steps to make the access easier any more different than destroying the growing trees with a rope?
if this was implemented by the 'land owner' then they would have a duty of care to install a hand rail, electronic stair lift, wrapp every one in cotton wool & not let you put your face in the water for fear of being drowned & then them being sued.
wake up call... diving is a dangerous sport! & we all do it every week.
Does anybody use the path on the left hand side of the tunnel that takes you to the tree? Still a bit tricky but it can be done, even on night dives.
Stewart, Diving is a dangerous sport, but if you can make it safer thats what we all try to do!! I dont think making access to sites easier is a big problem, I do however agree with the point that if you make the access easier for divers, then it is easier for others too. A few simple modifications makes it easier for us divers. I think the big thing is not the tunnel or the rocks down, its the seaweed at low tide, and theres really not a lot you can do about that anyway.
dive granny
10-03-07, 19:35
it's not just inexperience that can be a problem... wee short legs make some entries and exits difficult.:(
looks like i will just enjoy my weekends diving, giving the general feeling this post has raised.
would appear, most folk dont like the country side being disrupted. fair play, i do also agree.
still leaves the 'inexperienced', older (dare i say it), unfit or fat diver with a problem of getting up & down there with kit. perhaps they should just stay at home :rolleyes:
the 'Hoover' dam it was never going to be, just a few landing platform steps you could stop at on the way.
as the green welly brigade protest so much, i urge all you green welly supporters to remove the rope from the trees you are presently destroying!
more damaging to the enviroment than a few steps IMHO.
im happy to remove it for you or on anyones behalf next time im up.
this will help to curtail the inexperienced divers, fishermen, older, fatter & unfit persons from gaining access.
stuart probably had the best idea with masonary anchors & fix a rope to them or perhaps a steel cable. this being the least disruptive.
either way, this will still remain someone elses land that has been pointed out, you have no authority to change.
perhaps the weekly disappearing rope has been removed by divers to deter others from diving there giving the limited parking spaces.
im sharpening my knife as i write this http://finstrokes.com/scubaforum/images/smiles/icon_twisted.gif woahh haaa haaaa haaaaa!
:D lol
atlantic-diver
10-03-07, 23:08
:) easy ,
did the caves once with a tall (over 6ft) newbie who was not keen on entry
so walked 20 yards south of bridge , hopped over crash barrier , followed
path (worn by anglers) to large boulder (8feet high- low tide) right at waters edge.
slip in at side of boulder (exit was easy as well). at high(ish) tide it may be
possible to giant stride form top of rock . can also access to the rhs
you swim back to bridge on surface and start as usual or drop right
down (might be almost on the xmas tree but it was a few years back and
memory a bit hazy)
kenny
added 2 photos help
dived site today , vis poor to about 7m on low tide , cleared to about 5/6m
kenny
My Brother works on the roads and has done some work for me on the side.
He has access to pneumatic power tools and portable power supplies, Might be able to cut steps into the rocks.
Save cementing stuff up or heaven forbid killing trees :eek: !
Leabag(-ghlas
11-03-07, 15:16
am a builder in glasgow,if you's decide to concrete/granite or anchor bolts ive got a petrol mixer/ power tools not a problem:cool:
Lizardland
12-03-07, 01:05
Stewart, Diving is a dangerous sport, but if you can make it safer thats what we all try to do!!
I agree with Stewart. The site isn't dangerous, it's just hard and even then only for a couple of metres. I know it sounds harsh but being able to handle kit over rough ground is a fact of diving life, especially in Scotland.
Cheers,
Stuart
All makes sense to me. :rolleyes:
Good info from BikerBill & atlantic-diver. I look forward to checking out the alternate entry route next time out. (I'll wear my black wellies :eek:.)
My main concern was that conspicuous alteration to the culvert could result in the owner barricading off access completely. Fact that there is alternative access pretty much negates that worry. Just me being a bit overly conservative I guess... apologies to stew et al. for being negative! :o
Mr Flibble
12-03-07, 18:15
Leave the access as it is. Its character building. If you can't manage down a relatively easy rock slope then go dive the A frames. Part of the fun is getting in the water in the first place. Now Furnace Quarry or Stallion Rock in a twinset is what I call hard work. :D
Leave the access as it is. Its character building. If you can't manage down a relatively easy rock slope then go dive the A frames. Part of the fun is getting in the water in the first place. Now Furnace Quarry or Stallion Rock in a twinset is what I call hard work. :D
Stallion Rock, from the car park, on a summer evening, surrounded by a cloud of midges ...
Leave the access as it is. Its character building. If you can't manage down a relatively easy rock slope then go dive the A frames.
I agree in part, however having a dive buddy who is missing a few tendons from one knee and another buddy who is over 60, the caves is rather tricky for one of them in particular.
I dont think the access is too tricky, it could be worse, there could be tidal surge or waves crashing on it, however if it can be made easier with a few adjustments, then why not.
Triple Reef has similar access issues and without roping it on the dive, I wouldnt want to try. We were just fortunate last time we dived we had superDan to help us out with some strapping to use as climbing rope. (this was on a ScottishDivers trip with Budgy too, he will confirm superDan's ability)
Did a few shore dives in the Canaries where access is not dissimilar, over slippy rocks, but has the surf and surge element. Getting in you just have to time it right and dive/forward roll in, getting out you just gotta get lucky with a big enough wave. But diving was superb in a marine reserve! (el Carbon, if anyone else has been?)
Mr Flibble
13-03-07, 16:50
We were just fortunate last time we dived we had superDan to help us out with some strapping to use as climbing rope. (this was on a ScottishDivers trip with Budgy too, he will confirm superDan's ability)
I know Chris I was there also. We've got to help the old welshman in and out these days. :D