View Full Version : Trainee competency
I was'nt being snidey or anything like that. While I realise that the guy was probably a novice I was just pointing out that I think in general that over the past few years as diving has become more open and accessible to people of all ages that there has been more silly accidents taking place partly due to the people involved but also down to training or the lack of it. Just in the same way as some people get a car license but are crap at driving and should'nt really be on the road,I think that there are some people who get basic certification and then think they are divers when the reality is they are'nt comfortable in the water and/or do'nt belong there. Some of the training courses are a joke and what about too many trainees to an instructor???
Equipment failure aside we have all had problems under water but where the difference is in the way that you deal with that problem.Being inverted due to trapped air is in itself not that much of a problem but taking your reg out and drinking sea water up's the ante a bit. Is that not a fair comment?
I was'nt there and I'm not saying any of this applies to this particular incident and like I said I hope the guy is ok but I was only looking at the wider issue.
I totally disagree
If you look at any graph with the overall increase of dives over the decades in relation to the number a incidents it has gone down in particular with all training agencies upgrading all the time
As for doing an uncontrolled ascent because of a faultly auto dump why didn’t you vent the air through your cuff or neck?????
As for doing an uncontrolled ascent because of a faultly auto dump why didn’t you vent the air through your cuff or neck????? inexperience
Lizardland
07-11-06, 10:51
As for doing an uncontrolled ascent because of a faultly auto dump why didn’t you vent the air through your cuff or neck?????
That's a fairly standard reply to the "what if" question but it isn't as easy as you might think. Most divers have their gloves and hoods over the seal, getting to the neck seal especially isn't always that easy. In a runaway ascent, you need to get in position, peel back whatever is in the way, pull the seal open and dump air from your BCD which will be expanding all whilst hurtling to the surface. The best solution is to not get into the situation in the first place.
If you need to break your neck seal you only really need to get a grab at the front and pull, yank hood suit and all if need be. Or grab front of suit just below the hood and pull out and down. Try it on surface, isn't too difficult to do. Again though, you need presence of mind and a bit of experience to get too it quickly enough.
Hindsight is always 20-20. Hope everything is ok.
If you need to break your neck seal you only really need to get a grab at the front and pull, yank hood suit and all if need be. Or grab front of suit just below the hood and pull out and down. Try it on surface, isn't too difficult to do. Again though, you need presence of mind and a bit of experience to get too it quickly enough.
Hindsight is always 20-20. Hope everything is ok.
I agree. It's not too difficult to flood your suit from the neck seal....just ask gas guzzler.
Nederlander
08-11-06, 00:38
Sharkboy. U totally disagree with me??Well thats your posistion and your entitled to it. I however totally disagree with you. I'e dived with and seen enough halfwits in the water trying to commit hari-kirri to know that your talking bollocks:mad: Standards of diver training is in general crap and there are too many old,unfit and unsuitable people entering the sport when they should'nt be. This has increased in recent years along with peoples increasing wealth and sophistication in their choice of leisure pursuit which when coupled with more reliable kit has allowed 'ordinary' people to do dives that were once the preserve of ultra fit military divers,hence an increase in fatalities and DCS incidents.
As for you pointing out graphs and piecharts-80% of statistics are ambigious and open to interpretation:D
craigdiver
08-11-06, 12:56
Sharkboy. U totally disagree with me??Well thats your posistion and your entitled to it. I however totally disagree with you. I'e dived with and seen enough halfwits in the water trying to commit hari-kirri to know that your talking bollocks:mad: Standards of diver training is in general crap and there are too many old,unfit and unsuitable people entering the sport when they should'nt be. This has increased in recent years along with peoples increasing wealth and sophistication in their choice of leisure pursuit which when coupled with more reliable kit has allowed 'ordinary' people to do dives that were once the preserve of ultra fit military divers,hence an increase in fatalities and DCS incidents.
As for you pointing out graphs and piecharts-80% of statistics are ambigious and open to interpretation:D
IMHO, I do not think it is fair to generalise training agencies as providing poor training. Of course there is, and will always be, instructors that should not be instructing. However, there are a heck of a lot instructors out there who would not let a student near open water, or the deep-end of a swimming pool!, if they did not feel they were ready.
I'm overweight, well trained and aware of my limitations. 'old,unfit and unsuitable people ' can be trained to a very high level of proficience but dive within their limits. Anyway, I would much rather dive with an older much more experienced diver than a young super-fit PADI advanced diver with 9 dives (all done in warm-water) under his belt.
CraigDiver
Lizardland
08-11-06, 13:44
I think there is too much blame put on "bad" instructors and agencies. Like all sports, there are people involved that shouldn't be allowed near the water with a snorkel never mind anything else. Not very politically correct but the simple fact exists that there are very stupid people in the world and sadly a lot of them are allowed to have cars, credit cards and passports...
When I become emperor things will change...
Sharkboy. U totally disagree with me??Well thats your posistion and your entitled to it. I however totally disagree with you. I'e dived with and seen enough halfwits in the water trying to commit hari-kirri to know that your talking bollocks:mad: Standards of diver training is in general crap and there are too many old,unfit and unsuitable people entering the sport when they should'nt be. This has increased in recent years along with peoples increasing wealth and sophistication in their choice of leisure pursuit which when coupled with more reliable kit has allowed 'ordinary' people to do dives that were once the preserve of ultra fit military divers,hence an increase in fatalities and DCS incidents.
As for you pointing out graphs and piecharts-80% of statistics are ambigious and open to interpretation:D
I do agree with some of what you’re saying the general fitness level of the average UK diver is shocking. And some people do it for totally the wrong reasons
But you can’t stop anyone from going diving , (given that they past there medical etc,.) just like you can’t stop people from buying high powered bikes, going climbing etc,.because you don’t think they are young enough or fit enough
The thing with the training, every instructor no matter what training agency, has to follow a set of guidelines on what they teach, if these standards where so bad then the HSE would do something.
I’ve still to hear of anyone winning a court case against any of the training agencies
They have to keep themselves covered and upgrade all the time.
Put it this way there’s nothing stopping you from just buying scuba gear and going diving without any training
Just like there’s nothing stopping you going climbing without proper training
I’ve still to hear of anyone winning a court case against any of the training agencies
They have to keep themselves covered and upgrade all the time.
That's probably because when a diver dies, a fatal accident inquiry often takes place, which identifies defects in the system of working etc. Thereafter when it comes to the civil case, 95% of civil cases settle out of court, so you don't really get to hear about them.
Lizardland
09-11-06, 11:42
if these standards where so bad then the HSE would do something
The HSE only ensure that the DOAW regs are enforced and that a duty of care is being met, not that the agency's standards are enforced by the instructor.
The HSE only ensure that the DOAW regs are enforced and that a duty of care is being met, not that the agency's standards are enforced by the instructor.
That’s not what I meant
The training agency have to police there instructors questionnaires, checks, people informing them of bad teaching practise etc,
What I was saying is if any of the agency's standards where dangerous i.e. rate of ascent too fast etc, then the HSE would do something about it
That’s not to say the standards are approved by the HSE
If you work as an instructor in the UK you have to follow the agencies standards (PADI,NAUI,CMAS,BSAC,SCOTSAC,SAA etc,.)
Then if you getting paid you have to following both HSE and ACOP
And if you use a pool usually have to follow council standards that are 4 sets of rules and standards.
I have been on dives where the BI has a trainee they do the dive turns out the divers too light they give them rocks in the bcd and they have to hold on boulders through out the dive all they had to do was a weight check
This is bad practise