View Full Version : Aquatron's Nitrox filling policy
Chris@Aquatron
05-07-08, 15:05
Hi all,
I don’t get a chance to check this site anywhere near as much as I would like and certain threads were brought to my attention by a concerned customer feeling we were being mis-represented.
I welcome this chance to explain our position on O2 cleaning as there appears to be some misunderstanding of our policy and why we have adopted it.
We do appreciate the inconvenience our policy may cause, but given current health and safety law, that we are required to do EVERYTHING, which is ‘reasonable and practicable’ to protect the health and safety of everyone to which we owe a duty of care, we feel that we have no choice. Having conducted a risk assessment in this matter and having observed what can only be described as shocking standards of work by some other dive centres, we are not prepared as a business to either risk the lives (yes, it could be that serious) of our staff or customers or, have to stand up in court facing a criminal prosecution under Health and Safety law. The implications of a serious incident involving high pressure oxygen to us personally and to the very existence of our business are extremely serious. Please note, we are not suggesting for a second that all other dive centres’ work is shoddy. Far from it, we have a great deal of respect for the work of many dive businesses. But, given that we cannot audit every other dive centre in the UK we have taken the only prudent stance we see.
It has been suggested that this policy we have adopted is for commercial reasons - as in a money making exercise. We would like to assure all our customers that this is simply not the case. In fact we have lost customers as a direct consequence of this stance and indeed I have had another dive centre owner thanking us (and expressing delight!) for our policy. It is the commercial sense to stay in business and un-injured that drives us in this instance!
There has been some suggestion that contaminated fills could be easily obtained elsewhere and then the same “clean” tank brought into us for a nitrox fill and that this makes a mockery of our position. Firstly, it should be remembered that in this instance, the liability would fall to the tank’s owner for improper use, and secondly, that we do know our customers and if we suspected that they were taking a cavalier approach to safety in this way we would be obliged to act appropriately. If we are the only ones who are cleaning these tanks we can often tell if they have been mistreated.
For the future, we have every intention of putting a membrane system in place that would allow us to avoid the risks of partial pressure blending, for most nitrox fills. By doing this, there would be no issue with the standards of oxygen cleanliness with mixes up to 40%. This however, is a fairly substantial capital investment for what is a small part of our business, and will have to take its place in the queue of other developments we are planning to improve our standards of service and safety. Ironically, by taking their business elsewhere, disgruntled (ex-) customers of ours are lengthening the timescales before we can put a membrane system in.
In summary, the vast majority of our customers appear to accept the fact that we are honourable people trying to do our job well, without putting ourselves and others at risk unnecessarily, but those who think we should be obliged to do so for their convenience and think that for only a few quid we should risk criminal prosecution, then I’m afraid they are simply misguided, or perhaps they are simply not looking at the issue from our perspective.
I hope this has helped clarify our policy and I would welcome any questions or appropriate responses.
Kind Regards
Chris
Hi Chris, Can you clear up the following please. Looking at the http://www.sita.org.uk/idestmembers.html site i dont see Aquatron listed as a
IDEST Registered Station
Are you able to Carry out the IDEST testing of Cylinders and Stamp them IDEST.
Mad Major
Lizardland
05-07-08, 18:22
Yep safety is a concern. When I used to do fills for a shop I had no qualms about rejecting cylinders/customers that may be endangering my safety because it was me that would be going kaboom, not them.
However, I can understand why a lot of people might view it cynically. For instance, my local shop is an IDEST, IANTD & TDI approved centre and follow their standards to the letter -- if anything beyond that as a lot of their work was with servicing equipment for the analytics industry. My cylinders are stickered by them, and in that they carry certification to IDEST and IANTD standards (as marked on the stickers they use). I can't get them filled at Aquatron though when I'm in Glasgow. You're essentially saying that you cannot trust an IDEST or IANTD approved centre. Not a good look... :rolleyes:
Also, there are cylinders supplied new and in O2 service from the factory, are they also considered suspect?
I have to agree with the argument that being cleaned by you doesn't prove anything other than that the date you applied the sticker they were in O2 service. "Dirty" compressors are not always apparent. IIRC when I used to live in Glasgow, you had to ask for "clean" air. A lot of places still run that way, if you don't know then you'll never know until it's too late (that's without going down the road of how much hydrocarbon contamination is dangerous). It doesn't take a "cavalier attitude" to get a contaminated fill, it is remarkably easy to do. Then there is the potential for corrosion, failed filter particles, pieces of metal, etc. that you'll never know about.
Unfortunately, the safety argument is one that cannot be argued with. Out of interest, what is your policy going to be on M26 nitrox threads? Will you also insist on them or allow adapters?
Cheers,
Stuart
Another view is if divers are heading up this way and need fills where do they go for Nitrox?
I appreciate the need for H&S but you seem to be holding yourselves in high regard and basically saying you do not trust any other dive business in the whole of the UK to service and clean cylinders correctly to a standard approved by yourselves.
You stated that your policy was not a money making one but a safety one, yet you are not a registered IDEST test station, the only IDEST approved test stations in Scotland are Aquastars, C & C Marine, EDC, Loch Fyne Dive Charters, Paterson, Scotsafe.
Yogi Diver
05-07-08, 20:55
I agree fully with the general consensus that cyliders cleaned elsewhere MUST be able to be filled anywhere, if for no other reason than we cannot always get back to the shop that cleaned them for fills between dives.
However, it should be noted that IDEST has nothing to do with Oxygen Cleaning, just cylinder testing which is a different thing altogether.
If Aquatron are NOT IDEST approved, I hope no one is being silly enough to let them do their testing because none of the IDEST approved centres will then fill them.
think i have asked this one before (fell on deaf ears) but here i go again...:)
if aquatron O2 clean a cylinder and approve it for filling within aquatron, would that have any detremental effect upon the cylinder test as aquatron are not IDEST approved?
OR... do aquatron send out the cylinders to an approved IDEST testing station for cylinders to be opened, O2 cleaned and sent back to aquatron and then on to the customer.
obviously as aquatron are not IDEST approved, opening a cylinder for cleaning must fall within some realm of IDEST testing regulations.
some clarilty on the subject would be benefiicial to us all.
p.s. if aquatron had a membrane system, would they still insist on cylinders being 'aquarton stamped' for fills below Nx-40.
p.s. if aquatron had a membrane system, would they still insist on cylinders being 'aquarton stamped' for fills below Nx-40.
For the future, we have every intention of putting a membrane system in place that would allow us to avoid the risks of partial pressure blending, for most nitrox fills. By doing this, there would be no issue with the standards of oxygen cleanliness with mixes up to 40%.
:rolleyes:
Lizardland
06-07-08, 12:19
I work with HP gas systems for a living in the pharma and clean room industry and part of that is doing risk assessments on systems. The ONLY way to verify a cylinder that you have no QA track over its history is in O2 service and safe to fill (and if they are in private hands then you have no QA control), regardless of who did the cleaning/inspection work on it, is to open it up, inspect it and check the materials on critical parts in the valve. Every time. If you cannot do that then you have NOT risk assessed out the possibility of an O2 explosion. Any real industry that uses high pressure O2 systems would laugh that out the room as a mitigation. I would be very surprised if you could pass the responsibility on to the owner as you are accepting it to as suitable to be filled in a commercial operation. As soon as you put a component that doesn't have a safety verified trail into a safety verified system then that system is no longer safe. No offence, Chris, but I find the whole H&S argument hard to swallow. Also, I find it absolutely bizarre that you are still operating hydrocarbon free and non-HC free air systems alongside each other and not considering that a potential risk for contamination. I don't know any shop near me that fills nitrox and doesn't use triple filters or an oil free compressor on ALL fills, regardless of what it's going into. Apologies if I've misinterpreted the previous posts, but it sounds like that is still the set up.
If H&S was a concern then you'd dump nitrox filling by PP. If you were genuinely concerned about teh state of cylinders then why not keep 40% in a bank and PP blend using that? A continuous blend system for the bank would cost peanuts (especially compared to a membrane), partial pressure blend using that and air, all your concerns about O2 cleanliness disappear. EAN40 is dive industry standard for the O2 cleanliness threshold, you can fill anyone's cylinders regardless of whether or not they are stickered, everyone wins. It takes a bit more time... but then I thought you were concerned about safety... So if a cylinder that Aquatron has cleaned goes kaboom during a PP fill with O2 and the HSE says well why didn't you engineer out that particular risk when it is quite easily done, what are you going to say?
Cheers,
Stuart
However, it should be noted that IDEST has nothing to do with Oxygen Cleaning, just cylinder testing which is a different thing altogether.
If Aquatron are NOT IDEST approved, I hope no one is being silly enough to let them do their testing because none of the IDEST approved centres will then fill them.
Correct, IDEST concerns cylinder testing, not o2 cleaning.
Aquatron sends its tanks away to an IDEST accredited centre to be tested.
Correct, IDEST concerns cylinder testing, not o2 cleaning.
Aquatron sends its tanks away to an IDEST accredited centre to be tested.
Hmm ok, so if they send them away for testing, how do they o2 clean them without removing the valves? IM not sure about this but, surely removing a valve would invalidate a current test certificate?
surely removing a valve would invalidate a current test certificate?
the test is about condition of the tanks internally and externally also includes a valve service i don't see how removing a valve to o2 clean would invalidate the test
but saying that if you get it tested at a non idest center and they stamp anything on the tank its Scrap
the test is about condition of the tanks internally and externally also includes a valve service i don't see how removing a valve to o2 clean would invalidate the test
but saying that if you get it tested at a non idest center and they stamp anything on the tank its Scrap
I did say i wasnt sure if it did or not.
Yogi Diver
06-07-08, 19:59
Hmm ok, so if they send them away for testing, how do they o2 clean them without removing the valves? IM not sure about this but, surely removing a valve would invalidate a current test certificate?
Not sure, and I'm sure someone will correct me, but I don't think removal/replacement of a valve would affect the IDEST certifcate. Does create a "grey" area if there is any suggestion of moisture being allowed in but otherwise, shouldn't be a problem?
Not sure, and I'm sure someone will correct me, but I don't think removal/replacement of a valve would affect the IDEST certifcate. Does create a "grey" area if there is any suggestion of moisture being allowed in but otherwise, shouldn't be a problem?
It shouldn't affect the test status of the tank. However, the problem is that an IDEST test centre is certified competent to remove and replace the cylinder valve. A non-IDEST centre has no such certification and therefore may not be legally competent (which is not the same thing as being technically competent) to remove and replace the valve. If something goes wrong with the threads, for example on the next test they're found to be damaged by cross-threading or over-torquing, where does that leave the customer? The customer will have no come-back against the IDEST test centre who will point to the O2 clean sticker on the cylinder that comes from a non-IDEST centre and say - nothing to do with us guv'nor, you've had an unqualified person mucking about with this bottle. The customer could then go back to the non-IDEST cleaning centre and complain but if they didn't get satisfaction there they would have no recourse to Trading Standards or the courts as it is the customer's responsibility to ensure they appoint a competent person to do the job.
Removal and replacement of the valve does not invalidate an IDEST test certificate. When doing nitrox fills, the tank will be completely drained for pp mixing - from a cleaning perspective, this equates to removing the valve. IDEST certification does not relate to competence in assembly and disassembly of tanks in so far as NOT being IDEST certified does not prohibit a centre from legally opening a tank.
Lizardland
06-07-08, 20:27
Or even simpler, nothing needs to go wrong...
Sorry, guvnor, this sticker is from a non-IDEST centre, they've opened the bottle without being competent so we aren't touching it without doing a visual...
Removal and replacement of the valve does not invalidate an IDEST test certificate. When doing nitrox fills, the tank will be completely drained for pp mixing - from a cleaning perspective, this equates to removing the valve. IDEST certification does not relate to competence in assembly and disassembly of tanks in so far as NOT being IDEST certified does not prohibit a centre from legally opening a tank.
Its normally good practice to post a wee intro in Jimmys pub section, just to prevent any trolling ;)
i raised the question on a previous post, as did a few others.
put simply, do aquatron O2 service/clean the bottles offered to them or do they send them to an IDEST approved dealer for cleaning.
perhaps they do and it would be fair to let them answer first.
if they dont, it opens a whole can of worms as there are a few 'competent' people on these boards who are more than capable of O2 cleaning their own cylinders and assembling them (competent, but perhaps not legal).
its not difficult to buy O2 clean stickers and punch them out.
a big problem is if someone buys O2 clean stickers, punches them out and uses the cylinder without cleaning it.
-------------------
Joe_Todd,
please take the time to introduce yourself in 'jimmy's pub', it would be nice to know more about you.;)
Its normally good practice to post a wee intro in Jimmys pub section, just to prevent any trolling ;)
Duly noted!
Hi Chris
We have 2 cylinders that require a visual inspection at the end of this month. We're taking them to Patersons, an IDEST accredited centre that have tested all our other cylinders.
We are going to get them O2 cleaned there at the same time. Given that Patersons are IDEST accredited and carrying out a visual test at the same time, will you fill these cylinders with Nitrox or will I have to take them to FYM?
Cheers
Claire
Hi Chris
We have 2 cylinders that require a visual inspection at the end of this month. We're taking them to Patersons, an IDEST accredited centre that have tested all our other cylinders.
We are going to get them O2 cleaned there at the same time. Given that Patersons are IDEST accredited and carrying out a visual test at the same time, will you fill these cylinders with Nitrox or will I have to take them to FYM?
Cheers
Claire
Ditto. My 7's are up for inspection at the end of the month and I'm fully expecting to take them to Patersons.
Mr Flibble
07-07-08, 12:40
Curious to know........ if I purchased a new, nitrox ready cylinder from Aquatron (coming from the manufacturer o2 clean). Would they charge me for an inspection of a new cylinder sold by them or is the charge only levied on kit not purchased through Aquatron?
Mr Flibble
07-07-08, 12:42
Ditto. My 7's are up for inspection at the end of the month and I'm fully expecting to take them to Patersons.
Better factor in the cost of Aquatron redoing the cleaning. :confused:
Yogi Diver
07-07-08, 13:02
[quote]It has been suggested that this policy we have adopted is for commercial reasons - as in a money making exercise. We would like to assure all our customers that this is simply not the case. In fact we have lost customers as a direct consequence of this stance and indeed I have had another dive centre owner thanking us (and expressing delight!) for our policy. It is the commercial sense to stay in business and un-injured that drives us in this instance!
If it is NOT for commercial reasons, you could always offer to inspect suspect cylinders free of charge? :confused:
This would demonstrate your sincerity AND endear you to your customers who would see you doing the right thing for all the right reasons.
You could then reasonably offer to clean any cylinders which demonstrably didn't stand up to scrutiny for the appropriate fee.
There has been some suggestion that contaminated fills could be easily obtained elsewhere and then the same “clean” tank brought into us for a nitrox fill and that this makes a mockery of our position. Firstly, it should be remembered that in this instance, the liability would fall to the tank’s owner for improper use, and secondly, that we do know our customers and if we suspected that they were taking a cavalier approach to safety in this way we would be obliged to act appropriately. If we are the only ones who are cleaning these tanks we can often tell if they have been mistreated.
I'd love to know how you can tell if someone's had a fill from another LDS that you don't happen to trust.:rolleyes:
Getting my fills from the most convenient LDS to where I am currently working, living or diving is not demonstrating a "cavalier approach" just common sense.
Lizardland
07-07-08, 13:42
Curious to know........ if I purchased a new, nitrox ready cylinder from Aquatron (coming from the manufacturer o2 clean). Would they charge me for an inspection of a new cylinder sold by them or is the charge only levied on kit not purchased through Aquatron?
Having just bought some new cylinders I was wondering the same...
I'd love to know how you can tell if someone's had a fill from another LDS that you don't happen to trust.:rolleyes:
Getting my fills from the most convenient LDS to where I am currently working, living or diving is not demonstrating a "cavalier approach" just common sense.
Customer takes some cylinders into a shop that sells nitrox and asks for an air fill. The guy in the shop duly fills the cylinders. The cylinders are now out of O2 service because, like probably most people would think, he assumed a shop selling nitrox would be delivering HC-free air but actually operate two different air systems... cavalier?
I asked the chem engineers at work a couple of years ago how much oil would be required in a cylinder to be a realistic explosion risk in the presence of pure O2. Enough that you wouldn't want to be breathing the air was the reply.
Curious to know........ if I purchased a new, nitrox ready cylinder from Aquatron (coming from the manufacturer o2 clean). Would they charge me for an inspection of a new cylinder sold by them or is the charge only levied on kit not purchased through Aquatron?
no idea how the 'policy' is now (read 1st post again?), but i did just this the year before last with an alu 7L stage bottle which they did a price match on from Go-Dive.
i was not charged for any inspection, the only difference was the 11 month Aquatron O2 clean sticker.
Mr Flibble
07-07-08, 15:05
no idea how the 'policy' is now (read 1st post again?), but i did just this the year before last with an alu 7L stage bottle which they did a price match on from Go-Dive.
i was not charged for any inspection, the only difference was the 11 month Aquatron O2 clean sticker.
Ah but did they DO an inspection of the cylinder or just stick a sticker on an off the shelf one. If so then their policy exists for purely commercial reasons. :mad:
Lizardland
07-07-08, 15:10
Go-Dive
Ah but did they DO an inspection of the cylinder or just stick a sticker on an off the shelf one. If so then their policy exists for purely commercial reasons. :mad:
I was passing Go Dive so rather than pay postage I called in when I needed a cylinder. Did I want it O2 clean? Yes... The guy reaches under the counter, pulls out a sticker, slaps it on the cylinder, charges me a tenner. Acme instant oxygen cleaning service...
Ah but did they DO an inspection of the cylinder or just stick a sticker on an off the shelf one. If so then their policy exists for purely commercial reasons. :mad:
perhaps chris would be better answering that one than me...
i'm sure he is reading these posts. ;)
I was passing Go Dive so rather than pay postage I called in when I needed a cylinder. Did I want it O2 clean? Yes... The guy reaches under the counter, pulls out a sticker, slaps it on the cylinder, charges me a tenner. Acme instant oxygen cleaning service...
they were doing that at the NEC dive show 2006? as well.
they do the same with postal service buys as the stickers are never attached.
cant complain really, its a half price clean with minimum effort!:D
Yogi Diver
07-07-08, 15:33
I was passing Go Dive so rather than pay postage I called in when I needed a cylinder. Did I want it O2 clean? Yes... The guy reaches under the counter, pulls out a sticker, slaps it on the cylinder, charges me a tenner. Acme instant oxygen cleaning service...
they were doing that at the NEC dive show 2006? as well.
they do the same with postal service buys as the stickers are never attached.
cant complain really, its a half price clean with minimum effort!:D
It's a bit of a rip off though don't you think? If the new cylinders ARE O2 clean, why not sell them as such as standard? £10 for a sticker is blatant robbery.
macstinator
07-07-08, 15:37
Hi Chris
We have 2 cylinders that require a visual inspection at the end of this month. We're taking them to Patersons, an IDEST accredited centre that have tested all our other cylinders.
We are going to get them O2 cleaned there at the same time. Given that Patersons are IDEST accredited and carrying out a visual test at the same time, will you fill these cylinders with Nitrox or will I have to take them to FYM?
Cheers
Claire
I got my cylinders tested at Paterson's recently as they said they could do it in under a week rather than 6 weeks quoted by Aquatron. I paid to have them both o2 cleaned and the valves serviced thinking that you couldn't do much better than an IDEST certified operation.
Walked into Aquatron, cylinders clean as an O2 clean whistle, only to be told, no, they would not fill nitrox. Aquatron see themselves as above/apart from IDEST.
Is this a question of insurance premiums?
I have also found that, even though my cylinders are marked o2 clean, i have to ask for hydrocarbon free fills.
I do find it a bit of an oddity that a company who manufactures compressors and fill stations offers a non-hydrocarbon free fill. It strikes me as a bit backward.
It's a bit of a rip off though don't you think? If the new cylinders ARE O2 clean, why not sell them as such as standard? £10 for a sticker is blatant robbery.
the cylinders might very well be clean but the pillar valve O'ring might not be O2 compatibile.
Lizardland
07-07-08, 16:29
Is this a question of insurance premiums?
I can't see what difference it makes, if the cylinder is free to be taken anywhere then why should it matter whose sticker is on it? The shop has no control over what gets done to it off the shop premises whether they cleaned it, Patersons or anyone else. I would also have thought an insurer would look more favourably on the work of a company with industry accreditation than one without. Six weeks is ridiculous as well, my local IDEST place will do cylinders in a week. I dropped a batch of six on the Saturday and they were ready by the following Thursday (and that's on top of the industrial testing they do as their bread and butter).
I have also found that, even though my cylinders are marked o2 clean, i have to ask for hydrocarbon free fills.
I do find it a bit of an oddity that a company who manufactures compressors and fill stations offers a non-hydrocarbon free fill. It strikes me as a bit backward.
It's not backward, it's a recipe for an accident in a supposedly safety concious place of work that claims it is paranoid about cross contamination. If that set-up was done in an industrial setting whoever spec'd it would be reading the small print of their PI insurance. You don't have a source of contamination alongside a "clean" source where there is no way of preventing either from being hooked up other than how aware the operator is, it's basic design.
the cylinders might very well be clean but the pillar valve O'ring might not be O2 compatibile.
It depends on the supplier. As I understand it the distributor provides the valves on Luxfer cylinders and the whole thing is O2 service. Unless things have changed, I checked that with Sea & Sea (the UK Luxfer agent) years ago. I am not entirely sure that all Luxfer cylinders on sale in the UK are supplied through the UK agent though.
Cheers,
Stuart
It depends on the supplier. As I understand it the distributor provides the valves on Luxfer cylinders and the whole thing is O2 service. Unless things have changed, I checked that with Sea & Sea (the UK Luxfer agent) years ago. I am not entirely sure that all Luxfer cylinders on sale in the UK are supplied through the UK agent though.
Cheers,
Stuart
i think your right stuart, alu cylinders are usually 'ready to go' off the shelf.
might be fairer to say that steel ones, are probably more likely to contain nitrile rings than viton.
this is shaping up to be one of the longest running threads that CA has ever had.:)
macstinator
07-07-08, 18:57
...and potentially the most vitriolic.
Is this the new YD?;)
...and potentially the most vitriolic.
should be fine as long as the debate remains constructive and does not turn in to a pi55ing contest..:)
looks good so far...;)
Chris@Aquatron
11-07-08, 15:48
Original in red, response in white.
Hi all,
[COLOR="red"]Please note, we are not suggesting for a second that ALL other dive centres’ work is shoddy.
I’m sorry but I’ll have to quote your own words here “having observed what can only be described as shocking standards of work by SOME other dive centres”
I’m somewhat confused, are you telling us that other dive centres do shoddy work or not?
Hi again all,
Just got back from a few days at Stoney Cove helping in the recent Padi IE.
Interesting to see what I've come back to :D
Had a wicked time also!
There are some interesting points raised and again, as I said before, most are born from confusion by CA members. This small quote above highlights what I mean. I have capitalised the words 'SOME' and 'ALL' to help FURTHER clarify what was meant: The first quote states that we are not suggesting that ALL other dive centres work is shoddy. The second states that we have observed shocking standards of work from SOME dive centres. Still no matter how much we try to explain our position we have people 'confused'
Yes, there are some dive centres out there that provide shocking standards of work.
I realise this is only a small extract from a lengthy response and when I have more time I'll highlight as many points as I can but I thought this proved a great example.
Hope to post again soon.
Chris
Chris@Aquatron
11-07-08, 15:58
It's a bit of a rip off though don't you think? If the new cylinders ARE O2 clean, why not sell them as such as standard? £10 for a sticker is blatant robbery.
This is a response to a similar question on a previous post:
'Hi Gareth,
I've just posted a new thread on our forum to properly explain the policy.
With new cylinders, you're right, they should come fully ready for nitrox use but that is not always the case. They are virtually always not 'straight from the manufacturer', but through a dive centre. It was a common statement that some manufactures claimed they were Nitrox ready from new. This was the case but only to 40% which is useless for the vast majority of dive centres that use partial pressure blending. Luckily that is not so much the case over the last couple of years. However, some common problems I've seen is incorrect lube or o'rings used by the dive centre or cylinders arriving with no air during transit that allows moisture to enter. An even simpler problem is that the debris tube is not screwed in correctly and can come loose in the early stages of filling. To be honest, there are several dive centres that are following the correct guidelines but we cannot possibly audit every dive centres work before we oxygen fill a cylinder.
I understand this may be frustrating and I sympathise. However, I hope you understand our policy a bit clearer now.
Chris'
Lizardland
12-07-08, 12:09
The response I got from Sea & Sea a few years ago when I asked about Luxfer cylinders (who supply both the valve & cylinder together) is that the cylinder is now in oxygen service for ANY mix, not for 40%.
can I ask has any1 who has posted on this thread done a gas blending course other than Chris?
Lizardland
12-07-08, 14:46
can I ask has any1 who has posted on this thread done a gas blending course other than Chris?
I did mine (IANTD) in 1995 (I think, might have been 94 or 96) at Aberdeen Watersports. Jason who used to work in the shop was on the same course. I used to do gas fills and O2 cleans for a (now closed) IANTD centre in Glasgow. I still do my own filling/mixing.
****ing hell! I go on holiday for 1 week :rolleyes:
This seems pretty simple to me. I know I'll be accused here of jumping to the defence of our sponsor, and that is certainly partly what I'm doing because this thread is fairly peppared with petty aggression from a number of quarters in their direction. But mainly Chris's point is simple and perfectly logical and it's the accusations levelled against our LDS which are emotional and pedantic in many cases. These guys are just running a shop for gawds sake - they're not ****ing Halliburton :D
The rational case laid out by Chris is: we can't control the quality of external cylinders coming into our system, therefore we exclude those cylinders from the system. They have the right to do this. We don't have the right to give them a hard time about it. The right we do have is, if we ain't happy with LDS A, then go to LDS B. Shop somewhere else, don't spam up Conger Alley with petty tirades.
Thank you.
Chris@Aquatron
15-07-08, 17:02
can I ask has any1 who has posted on this thread done a gas blending course other than Chris?
Cheers mate,
very good point!
Chris@Aquatron
15-07-08, 17:05
Hi
As I posted before I will respond to some of the points raised in this thread but firstly I would make the general point that the original post is simply a statement of our position. It is a policy that we have arrived at after a great deal of consideration, and whilst some posters here consider it “stupid” and “idiotic” I would suggest that our policy making has kept us in business for nearly 40 years. Longer than any other dive centre in Scotland.
The issue of our clean air vs “4 star” air. The simple truth is our standard air complies with the cleanliness requirements of blending nitrox, but as the consequences of an accident are too severe to consider we have adopted a “belt and braces” approach which is in effect the same as our approach to the whole tank cleaning issue. I will reiterate from my original post – it is our lives/ livelihood we are talking about. Please note that we have our air tested monthly, not quarterly as is the industry norm and using a much more accurate and sophisticated method than industry norms. The certificate is posted on the wall next to our charging point for public inspection. I can now hear the posts: “so why charge more for hydrocarbon fee air?” and to that the answer is that we have additional filtration in place on this so that we can be 100% happy that the air is 100% free of hydrocarbons. This is in our view the prudent approach and obviously costs money. Our plans for the future, when we upgrade our charging facilities, are to filter all our air to the same extremely high standard. This should take place in the coming year.
On the issue of us seeing ourselves as “above/ apart from IDEST”, the full facts have to be considered. At the heart of the change to the cylinder testing regulations is European regulations requiring those who certify cylinders to be “approved” as opposed to “competent”, which is the old legal definition. The only government body that could feasibly undertake this approval in the UK is UKAS. UKAS accreditation is very expensive so after a long drawn out process of discussion within the industry and with UKAS and the regulators, IDEST obtained UKAS accreditation to approve test houses. So when the regulations changed Aquatron ceased to be legally competent to test cylinders (despite almost 40 years experience!), but we are still legally competent to carry out other work on cylinders. A “competent person” is considered to be someone who has the training and/ or experience to carry out work competently. Again for the future we will be obtaining a IDEST approval for ourselves or for a close, and local, business partner at some stage in the future, which will address the problems we have been having with regard to delivery times for cylinder testing work at the moment. Unfortunately, due to the planned changes to our premises, this is something which has had to be put on the back burner for the time being.
One final point I would make is that for those who expressed surprise and concern at Gordon’s action closing the thread, that Aquatron has been called “above/ apart from IDEST”, “paranoid”, having “no legal competence”, “patronising”, and on another thread relating to this one it was implied that we posted something “stupid”, were “idiots” and that we had “run to teacher”. Now, I personally think Gordon has done a fantastic job and has created a gem in the Scottish diving scene, but his role is not easy, in that it must be kept (see rule 4) “nice”, whilst still being useful and interesting. It could so easily degenerate like some other diving forums, and for my final quote it was posted on the thread “and potentially the most vitriolic”. So guys, I would like to suggest that we are as supportive of Gordon here as we can be.
Kind Regards
Chris
Chris sorry to drag this up again but it must be something in the air today.
I fully understand that you believe some other dive centres work isn't up to scratch but there must be some that you do trust. If this is the case then why don't you have a "preferred supplier" list that if the tanks are tested and cleaned there then you would accept and fill them, (or indead an "unprefferred supplier" list where you wouldn't).
I am in the position at the moment of trying to get my tanks O2 cleaned but because I have some light corrosion and need a shot blast I cannot get it done by yourselves for probably a couple of months.
The other point is what if Puffin then started this policy, when we go for the weekend up there can we not use Nitrox, this policy is making life far more difficult and frustrating than it should be. Also as has been pointed out before, what about travellers from elsewhere, are they prohibited from getting a fill?
I keep asking when I'm in about you getting certifed to inspect tanks and it always seems to be "soon". What is the situation, are you going to get sorted to inspect tanks, would make everyones life so much easier.
I have 2 Brand new Tanks that have been cleaned by Dive Life in Manchester, would you fill them?
Chris@Aquatron
28-08-10, 10:06
Hi IFAIRLEY,
Yes we would fill them with clean air if you wished. But as we have explained in the thread above we would not fill them with Nitrox.
Cheers
Chris
Scuba-Doh!
28-08-10, 16:35
Hi IFAIRLEY,
Yes we would fill them with clean air if you wished. But as we have explained in the thread above we would not fill them with Nitrox.
Cheers
Chris
Cracking job avoiding the tough questions Chris!
Chris sorry to drag this up again but it must be something in the air today.
I fully understand that you believe some other dive centres work isn't up to scratch but there must be some that you do trust. If this is the case then why don't you have a "preferred supplier" list that if the tanks are tested and cleaned there then you would accept and fill them, (or indead an "unprefferred supplier" list where you wouldn't).
I am in the position at the moment of trying to get my tanks O2 cleaned but because I have some light corrosion and need a shot blast I cannot get it done by yourselves for probably a couple of months.
The other point is what if Puffin then started this policy, when we go for the weekend up there can we not use Nitrox, this policy is making life far more difficult and frustrating than it should be. Also as has been pointed out before, what about travellers from elsewhere, are they prohibited from getting a fill?
I keep asking when I'm in about you getting certifed to inspect tanks and it always seems to be "soon". What is the situation, are you going to get sorted to inspect tanks, would make everyones life so much easier.
The other point is what if Puffin then started this policy
I think that is a very good point. You don't want shops starting to operate a defacto permit system when it comes to cylinders bought/serviced elsewhere. If they can't do an O2 clean then what chance of they got doing a visual, it's not a difficult argument to make. With the prices of some places for tests it's already approaching economical to just buy new every few years and flog the old ones on. And there already a few places that tax you on buying cylinders elsewhere, the old "was this cylinder empty, sir?" trick. Then you've got the "well we don't know where it's been filled once it left the workshop" trick too.
It's a shame that there isn't a more consistent approach. I used to do fills for a shop years ago when nitrox was starting out, I can understand safety concerns over cylinder cleanliness, I used to happily knoc back anyone I thought was dubious as it was me that would be going boom. But you also need to assume that there are reliable workshops out there or the whole system grinds to a halt, everyone plays by one set of rules with a pretty good safety record and then someone decides to live by their own and everybody loses.
Hi IFAIRLEY,
Yes we would fill them with clean air if you wished. But as we have explained in the thread above we would not fill them with Nitrox.
Cheers
Chris
Fair enough, when you start pumping O2 to 200+ Bar then I'll get CCR cylinders O2 Cleaned by you. Until then, I'll fill them in my garage myself.
Chris@Aquatron
30-08-10, 16:48
Dave
With regard to your posting, there doesn't seem to be any point in re-iterating what we have previously stated, as it still stands.
However, we do take our customer feedback seriously and are in process of re-jigging our nitrox system so that we will be able to fill tanks cleaned by other centres with up to 36% without any risk will allow us to cost effectively store nitrox and fill cylinders that may not be cleaned to the standards we operate to without risk.
On your other note, we are a small business operating in meagre times and are developing and improving our operations as quickly as we can, so I have to ask you to bear with us as obtaining our IDEST approval is on the agenda but can only take place as resources of man hours and cash become available. I have to point out that both the changes to our blending system and implementation of IDEST are far from money spinners for us and are being done in the interests of customer service and not profit directly.
Cheers
Chris
Chris@Aquatron
30-08-10, 16:50
I used to do fills for a shop years ago when nitrox was starting out, I can understand safety concerns over cylinder cleanliness, I used to happily knoc back anyone I thought was dubious as it was me that would be going boom.
Nice to hear from someone who understands there are dangers! :)
Chris@Aquatron
30-08-10, 16:51
Fair enough, when you start pumping O2 to 200+ Bar then I'll get CCR cylinders O2 Cleaned by you. Until then, I'll fill them in my garage myself.
Cheers for that and I'll keep you posted on the installation of our new oxygen pump.
Chris
Nice to hear from someone who understands there are dangers! :)
Yes, I understand the dangers. That's why I fill at home where I know what I'm getting and how much I'm going to pay and not going to get taxed because I went somewhere else at one point.
I've been mixing gas for about fifteen years, I don't think I've ever heard of a single incident in a shop in the UK where a properly stickered cylinder went kaboom. Sure you can buy O2 stickers off the internet but you don't have to be that clever to spot them. I'm just saddened that the rest of the UK's shops sign up to a standard way of doing things and a spanner gets thrown in the works in Glasgow.
I don't know if you realise, Chris, just how bad Aquatron's reputation is for this. I was diving on the south coast last month and people there were commenting on how they were put off diving the Clyde because they couldn't get nitrox fills without paying an extra tenner. What could I do but recommend Castle or FYM?
stafforddiver
30-08-10, 18:07
right, the news about 36% being possible sounds excellent as does the idtest issue.
On a more positive note, any chance of the odd trimix fill, at the moment its FYM at Grangemouth, so a little closer would be really nice?
scubamuppet
30-08-10, 21:14
Last year I had two cylinders nitrox cleaned (not by Aquatron) and went diving at capernwray for four days. When I tried to get a nitrox fill by them they laughed. They pointed out that the cylinders had a nice new nitrox sticker and a O2 clean sticker. the only problem was the O2 clean sticker wasthat it was ten years out of date, it did however have a hand written date on it (this sticker fell off both cylinders as soon as they were wet).
This year I had the same cylinders cleaned at Aquatron, they remembered me at Capernwray when I asked for Nitrox and had a quick look at my tanks and said "Aquatron are the only center in Glasgow that we will fill with nitrox and sometimes even air"
I personaly dont mind using someone that puts his staff first, the chances of a cylinder going bang is small but if it does it could be a loss of life or at best loss of limbs.
I get all my cylinders and regs done at Aquatron just for the fact that they are so anal about being safe and doing it properly.:w00t:
I certainly wont be using a company that cant get stickers that are in date and fall off as soon as they get wet:thumbdown:.
:laugh: it's not every day that anal is a complement
Maybe they should have t-shirts made up ...
"Anal and proud"?
... or ...
"Anal because we care"? ... yeah that could work ....
or
"Anal. It just makes sense!"
:blink:
Last year I had two cylinders nitrox cleaned (not by Aquatron) and went diving at capernwray for four days. When I tried to get a nitrox fill by them they laughed. They pointed out that the cylinders had a nice new nitrox sticker and a O2 clean sticker. the only problem was the O2 clean sticker wasthat it was ten years out of date, it did however have a hand written date on it (this sticker fell off both cylinders as soon as they were wet).
This year I had the same cylinders cleaned at Aquatron, they remembered me at Capernwray when I asked for Nitrox and had a quick look at my tanks and said "Aquatron are the only center in Glasgow that we will fill with nitrox and sometimes even air"
I personaly dont mind using someone that puts his staff first, the chances of a cylinder going bang is small but if it does it could be a loss of life or at best loss of limbs.
I get all my cylinders and regs done at Aquatron just for the fact that they are so anal about being safe and doing it properly.:w00t:
I certainly wont be using a company that cant get stickers that are in date and fall off as soon as they get wet:thumbdown:.
I don't think anyone is asking them not to be safe, but as a customer, I expect that if they have a policy like this then I should be able to get my cylinders cleaned within a reasonable time. I put mine in last week but because they needed to be sent away to Leicester (how green is that:confused::confused:) for shot blasting it would probably be about 2 months before they are O2 clean, not what I would call good service by any stretch of the imagination.
We have a Patersons on our doorstep that are inspected by Industrial regulators to be doing a proper job and Aquatron don't trust that they do?:confused::confused: Everyone else in the area seems to trust them, seems strange to me.
As I said before, if they don't trust a certain place to do the job properly them have a publicised blacklist for cylinders they won't fill, don't tar everyone with the same brush.
Is every other dive center in the country that will trust that other companies have done a proper job acting in a dangerous or hazardous way, I really don't think so.
Chris@Aquatron
31-08-10, 14:46
:laugh: it's not every day that anal is a complement
Maybe they should have t-shirts made up ...
"Anal and proud"?
... or ...
"Anal because we care"? ... yeah that could work ....
or
"Anal. It just makes sense!"
:blink:
LOL :laugh:
I think we have a winner for the new Aquatron logo. It almost beats the Beaver one! :D
It’s almost like the best funeral directors company slogan I've see- 'Drive Carefully, we'll wait!' Humour is the food of the soul.
Chris
Had an interesting wee chat with Chris about this the other day. I don't think we actually agreed with each other but I can see the angle that Aquatron are coming from and how they are perhaps trying to protect everyone from some of the dodgier parts of the industry. I think bottom line is, is we all did a risk assessment for this, then there would be no duplicates as it is not an exact science.
On the positive side, Chris gave me a tour of the new facilities that they are building out the back. They now have in their possesion an O2 pump, which, correct me if I'm wrong, will allow them to make standard mixes without having to put high O2 percentages into the cylinders, then do we need to O2 clean? :confused: There are also plans to get certified to test tanks, the sooner the better Chris I'm fed up running round different places with tanks ;);)
They now have in their possesion an O2 pump, which, correct me if I'm wrong, will allow them to make standard mixes without having to put high O2 percentages into the cylinders, then do we need to O2 clean? :confused:
Depends what it is and what they are doing with it. If it's a booster pump then it's just for pumping O2 (or any other component gas) to higher pressures. It makes gas use a lot more efficient if you do a lot of filling. You could for example take a J with 20bar of O2 in it and pump that to 100bar or whatever you needed. It wouldn't necessarily negate the need for O2 cleans, it means your O2 j bottles go a lot further.
If it's an oil free compressor then assuming it's in oxygen service then you could pre-mix air and O2 to the right proportions at 1bar, suck it into the compressor and pump it into a cylinder to 232bar (or whatever). That would negate the need for O2 clean as long as it was gases <40% O2.
Or if it's a membrane system then it would separate some nitrogen out of normal air and what's left can be pumped into a cylinder, again without the need for O2 cleaning if <40%.