View Full Version : SCOTSAC drops Buddy Breathing tests.
Hi folks.
It may ( or more likely , may not ) interest you to know that SCOTSAC have dropped the requirement for the Open Water Buddy breathing ascent as part of their training requirements.
This has been a bit of a contentious issue for a couple of years now , having already been dropped and then reinstated.
It has now once again been suspended from the schedule and I expect will be formally removed at the next AGM.
While I personnaly , think it was a good part of my training , I can understand the reasons behind this move.
1) It is an inherently 'dangerous' procedure which puts both the trainee and the buddy at risk.
2) It is largely superfluous in modern diving practice as everyone ( well certainly everyone I have ever dived with ) has an octo , which is the prefered first option anyway.
Open Water Shared ascents will remain , as will Buddy breathing tests in the pool.
What's your thoughts on this ?
Cheers , John.
Dont think it is dangerous in a controlled environment. I have always questioned the order of CESA before buddy breathing in an OOA situation.
Dive Tramp
27-05-08, 10:47
Yeeah, whilst its a good skill to have in the event of a total equipment failure, lets think of how many pieces of equipment must have failed before the two buddies have to resort to sharing ONE regulator!
The Main reg fails,
Go to Octopus (we've ALL got them now, it's pretty much "mandatory" these days)
Octopus fails,
AutoAir? if you have one (it's one of the many things I like about my Buddy Commando )'
Bail out bottle and reg,
If that fails, your Buddy ought to be near you now,
He/she gives you his/her Octopus,
It fails!
Try his/her bail out Pony,
You get the picture?
Buddy breathe, Really? When its all gone tits up to this extent, what's your (and your buddie's ) breathing rate? Its a real cool diver who can keep his or her head and donate your own air supply to a (definately) panicking buddy!
I'm glad to see this contentious piece of training being removed from the syllabus, its something we, Perth SSAC, tried to keep out of the training when we attended the AGM two or three years ago. Despite a big response from the audience the NDC still proposed it and put it in. We at Perth (and a good few other clubs) refused to include in our requirements, although we did practice it from 10m to 15m or so, just to make divers aware of the skill required, as much to tell them to keep their kit in good order that they will NEVER have such a catastrophic equipment failure that would require this exercise.
Just my opinion you understand...:rolleyes:
I'm an engineer so I like equipment.
To me a 2nd DV on a 1st stage to be used as an octo has limited use, and bugger all use if you have a problem with your 1st stage.
If you insist on diving without a pony then at least think of twin outlet pillar and use two first stages with a seperate dv on each.
Pony's and twinsets are the way to go, and I believe the benefits of these set ups should be introduced once the trainee is at a level where they are comfortable in the water and controling the dive themselves.
Shared asscents are of little use in my book. The hose length of the average octo you see during buddy checks would require that you where restrictivly close each other.
Shared ascents where not part of my training by the way.
http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa140/regthing/popcorn.gif
I don't think it is a bad skill to have. Maybe for Sport Diver trainees who have very little experience of open water and may panic while doing the test.
However, they have removed the buddy breathing ascent from the master diver syllabus too - by that level, a diver should be confident enough underwater that doing the ascent should not put them into a 'dangerous' position.
Anyway, surely it's not a completely useless skill - take the position of 2 divers diving with a stage of deco mix. If 1 diver's reg fails on the stage they will have to share the other diver's in order to do the deco. While it may be an argument to say that divers could learn buddy breathing if they decide to go down this route, it does not hurt to have already learnt the technique and have practised it.
But then, maybe that's my opinion because I have already done my master diver buddy breathing ascents!
stafforddiver
27-05-08, 10:57
BSAC removed Buddy breathing from its training programme completely in 2002 (I think it was 2002 anyway).
The argument was that people were practicing buddy breathing more than they were practicing using an AAS (typically Octopus).
In a real OOA situation divers were buddy breathing because thats what the 'muslce memory' had conditioned them to do even thought they had a perfectly adequate and working octopus.
As has been said, a Pony or Twinset is a better option. Not sure I agree with the idea of using your auto air, I prefer a proper REG, but thats just personal use I suppose.
Cheers,
Gareth.
being a keen and buding ssac trainee ;) i have only done two Buddy breathing acents so far. i did how ever notice on ssac web page on there new section ( a week ago) that it had been suspended so i swiftly told my trusty instructor and all is now well.
i personaly think it is a usefully thing to/learn, but as people are saying nearly every one now has an octo, pony, twin etc etc
Lizardland
27-05-08, 11:40
I agree with removing it. It's a totally pointless skill for anything other than bad movies (anyone see Into The Blue on sunday night?). It's good as a test of coping with a stressful situation, as PADI do on the Divemaster kit swap, but as a lifesaving skill?
I'm an engineer so I like equipment.
I could drag out all my engineer jokes :D
To me a 2nd DV on a 1st stage to be used as an octo has limited use, and bugger all use if you have a problem with your 1st stage.
I agree with that. Most of the "failures" that I've seen are either people overestimating how much air they have left/not monitoring gauges or freeflows/leaks. If it's the former then the chances are the buddy is going to be low on air as well, if it's the latter then your own octopus is useless, you need either an independant air source or your buddy. As for 1st stage failures, they are extremely rare and when they do fail it'll usually be something like the HP seat in which case the entire contents of the cylinder get dumped down the 2nd stage. Unless you dive Poseidons in which case a 1st stage can stop giving air completely (I've had two 1st stages that have locked up completely).
If you insist on diving without a pony then at least think of twin outlet pillar and use two first stages with a seperate dv on each.
I either dive a twinset or a single, I never use a pony. If I'm using a single then I make sure my emergency air source is swimming next to me :D There's an old saying that if you think you need a pony then you need a twinset and I'd agree with that, it doesn't take much depth to make an ascent on a pony unrealistic.
Pony's and twinsets are the way to go, and I believe the benefits of these set ups should be introduced once the trainee is at a level where they are comfortable in the water and controling the dive themselves.
I dived with a Danish club and it was club rules that above a certain grade then you dived on a twinset. I assume that is their governing body's rules and not just the club's.
Shared asscents are of little use in my book. The hose length of the average octo you see during buddy checks would require that you where restrictivly close each other.
I don't know I'd go that far but I agree that the standard kit config isn't geared towards air sharing. Everyone I dive with uses at least a 1.5m hose.
I don't think it is a bad skill to have.
I just don't see the point of it. I'm not familiar with SSAC's rules, is diving without some form of alternate air source allowed? If so then the simplest fix is to ban diving without an octopus rather than teaching how to deal with what is an inherently bad set-up.
However, they have removed the buddy breathing ascent from the master diver syllabus too - by that level, a diver should be confident enough underwater that doing the ascent should not put them into a 'dangerous' position.
The other side of the coin is that by that level a diver should not need the skill. As I said earlier, it's a very good way of inducing stress which may be useful but as a real world skill I don't see the point. A diver at that level should be capable of monitoring a SPG, should be able to plan gas margins, should be equipped with the necessary kit, etc.
Anyway, surely it's not a completely useless skill - take the position of 2 divers diving with a stage of deco mix. If 1 diver's reg fails on the stage they will have to share the other diver's in order to do the deco. While it may be an argument to say that divers could learn buddy breathing if they decide to go down this route, it does not hurt to have already learnt the technique and have practised it.
I'm afraid not, that's a bad solution. Buddy breathing a stage is a recipe for disaster and totally unneccesary. Worst case, you double the stop time, one diver goes to backgas, the other breathes the deco gas and halfway through you swap, the diver with the failure goes on the deco gas and the second diver goes to backgas. It's a standard procedure and gas margins should be planned into the all the gas supplies to cope with it. To do diving requiring deco gases needs spot on failure planning. Buddy breathing a stage is stone age, you'll be building up CO2, you'll be building up stress, you're at risk of losing control of your depth, it just doesn't work if you've got maybe 5 or 6 divers at 6m, current, etc.
Cheers,
Stuart
Thanks , some interesting points made I feel.
I agree with Claires suggestion that it possibly should have been kept in for the Master Diver award.
I think that under typical UK diving conditions this test is very demanding for the average Sport diver trainee.
Sharing air , controlling ascent rate using a computer or gauge , controlling buoyancy of Stab and Drysuit while in low vis and / or darkness is a 'task load' too far !
Or am I just making excuses 'cos I didn't pass it first time :D
As with any skill , there has to be some value in having practiced it at least once or twice I guess !
no you are correct. it is alot to think about. you basicaly have to multi task!
Lizardland
27-05-08, 12:33
no you are correct. it is alot to think about. you basicaly have to multi task!
And that's the problem with it as a real world skill. In a real out of air situation you want as easy, instinctive and simple a solution as possible. In air sharing, you either manage it or you (and possibly your buddy as well)drown. There's no prize for having chosen a difficult option over an easy one.
I agree with Stuart on the master diver level. You should be experianced enough to be able to plan/monitor your gas and equipped to handle a failure.
I don't know about deco procedures but I'm sure anyone who has done the course will be aware of the drills.
Lizardland
27-05-08, 13:01
I don't know about deco procedures but I'm sure anyone who has done the course will be aware of the drills.
At the risk of opening another can of worms, emergency gas planning isn't always particularly well taught. Certainly in the nitrox range of diving, losing a deco gas is a non-event so it's not overly important.
Looking at what was taught on the IANTD & TDI courses I've done then the gas planning is nowhere near as well taught as the procedures GUE teach. I know a lot of people don't agree with DIR and its teachings but the really have covered gas management extremely well.
And that's the problem with it as a real world skill. In a real out of air situation you want as easy, instinctive and simple a solution as possible. In air sharing, you either manage it or you (and possibly your buddy as well)drown. There's no prize for having chosen a difficult option over an easy one.
Too right !
I think as well that it would have a lot to do with the immediate circumstances you were in.
I would fancy my chances OK in a blue water dive with an experienced buddy , a 3mm shorty and 40m vis.
Not so sure it would pan out quite as well from 30m in Loch Mud.
Vaguely on the same subject , I have heard a rumour that SCOTSAC ( them again :eek: ) are about to propose a manditory Secondary air supply.
I'm not sure if they don't mean Secondary Air Source ie an octo or auto-air etc , which we all do already , or a pony /twins.
If it IS a secondary supply then a lot of people are going to be a bit unhappy I think.
Cheers , JB.
Looks like I am out on a limb here then. I dont agree it should be removed, and it is not necassrily down to equipment failure!
I have myself assisted a buddy in an OOA situation by buddy breathing, neither of us panicked, we were at about 12m ish (I could check my logbook), my buddy swam over to me and did the OOA sign showing me his contents gauge, I then donated my working DV and grabbed my own Octopus. Once we were comfortable, taking up the position shown to us and completed in training we ascended.
This situation clearly benefited from the training received and had we not been trained, it could have been a bit more difficult.
The buddy in question is on this forum and may wish to add to this.
stafforddiver
27-05-08, 13:12
I then donated my working DV and grabbed my own Octopus
I'm not sure thats buddy breathing, is not buddy breathing where you both share the same demand valve?
Gareth.
Lizardland
27-05-08, 13:18
I'm not sure thats buddy breathing, is not buddy breathing where you both share the same demand valve?
Gareth.
That's what I thought as well. If they mean by "buddy breathing" sharing any air source then I take it all back, it's an essential skill :)
I've always taken buddy breathing to mean passing one 2nd stage back and forth between 2 divers.
Cheers,
Stuart
Oh well thats me put my foot in the proverbial again then, ignore me and carry on!
ALthough I did think that was called a shared ascent!
Vaguely on the same subject , I have heard a rumour that SCOTSAC ( them again :eek: ) are about to propose a manditory Secondary air supply.
I'm not sure if they don't mean Secondary Air Source ie an octo or auto-air etc , which we all do already , or a pony /twins.
If it IS a secondary supply then a lot of people are going to be a bit unhappy I think.
Cheers , JB.
The Scotsac rule changes (announced May 6th) regarding this can be read here: http://www.scotsac.com/downloads/BB_ascents.pdf
In addition, the following item shall be added to the Diving Rules listed on page 11:
* ‘No Member shall dive without carrying an alternative air source to deliver air to a Buddy in an emergency’
Johnny I think that ruling is the one that is getting confused with secondary breathing gas supply, i.e a pony or twin set.
It just means an octopus.
I find it amazing that in this day and age that ruling has just been made.
If somebody turned up to dive with me and they only had one regulator I wouldn't even get in the water with them, as for buddy or scubapro AIR2's well they are a waste of space imo and I am happy to be proved wrong.
Top back up what's been said re dual first stages, last summer I encountered many a French and German CMAS diver who insisted on using a single tank with a Y valve so they had two first stages.
Personally I think that is a brilliant approach but rare for the UK.
On the other discussion: I spoke with an insructor recently about a "technical" course and one option that was discussed rather than going down the twin route was y-valves. A certain training agency is insisting on this for courses beyond a certain level.
EDITED as just read the Scotsac website:
Shared ascent training is suspended!
The buddy in question is on this forum and may wish to add to this.
I doubt he wants to add anything :o :eek:
I'm not sure thats buddy breathing, is not buddy breathing where you both share the same demand valve?
Gareth.
Me neither.
_____________
I guess Chris' point, like some above, is that is wasn't an incredibly stressed situation and the various practise drills we'd done before meant it went very smoothly. I would agree you are not likely to use the buddy breathing technique, but the various practise drills mean you can keep going ahead confidently. I didn't have any automated response to do that rather than the AAS route.
Yogi Diver
27-05-08, 13:37
Just to stir the debate a bit further, try sharing via an Octopus at depth sometime rather than the easy drills we all do in shallow waters.
You may get a fright when you both try to breathe in at the same time at 40 metres.
Given a stressful situation when your Surface Air Equivalent goes up to over 25 litres plus per minute, this would mean, at 40 metres, your first stage would be required to deliver over 250 litres of air per minute. If your buddy's really panicking, this could easily rise to well over 300 and you may be shocked to realise that many 1st stages in the market are not capable of delivering this amount. The only way to survive in this situation would therefore be to breathe "out of synch" with your buddy, not necessarily that easy when you are both stressed.
My advice to anyone planning to go below 30 metres would therefore definitely be a minimum of a pony, and even then consider how much air you need for the ascent.
Given the above scenario, to reach the surface at 10 metres/minute with a 1 minute stop could require upwards of 450 litres so anything less than 150 bar in your 3 litre pony and your buddy runs out of air before the surface.
Any Deco incurred reduces his/her chance of survival greatly.
Given a stressful situation when your Surface Air Equivalent goes up to over 25 litres plus per minute
Maybe for you - my SLM is around 20 anyway, if I really panicked I could get way above 25!
Lizardland
27-05-08, 13:52
I find it amazing that in this day and age that ruling has just been made.
Equally so the from the 2009 AGM onwards part.
If somebody turned up to dive with me and they only had one regulator I wouldn't even get in the water with them, as for buddy or scubapro AIR2's well they are a waste of space imo and I am happy to be proved wrong.
Couldn't agree more. If someone is saying by the way they have rigged their kit that they aren't going to make any provision for their partner's safety then I wouldn't either. I'm not going to be someone else's swimming pony bottle when they won't do the same for me.
I got an AIR2 for free on a second hand wing I bought once, I even attempted using it for a while. They really are rubbish.
I used to dive with a guy who dived with H valves but I could count on one hand the number of people I've seen since. I'm still not entirely sure it's that much of an improvement over a single and good buddy diving practice to justify the added hassle though.
Cheers,
Stuart
For the record, Scotsac have suspended buddy breathing - sharing a 2nd stage, not all sharing. You still have to do shared ascents, using alternative air supply (octopus etc.)
Stuart, good point re the deco stage - I guess I'll learn that (hopefully) in the practical section of my course!
Good point Yogi !
One of my considerations when buying my new regs ( MARES Abyss MR22 ) was their supposed ( am I daft enough to believe sales literature ) performance at depth under increased workload.
Hopefully this is something we all take due consideration of.
I use an AutoAir and I don't have a problem with that. In an OOA , my buddy gets my main reg ( that's what we are taught to do ) and I get an uncomfy crinkly hose in my gub.
At my current level of diving ( very un-techy ) it is simple and adequate enough.
Maybe for you - my SLM is around 20 anyway, if I really panicked I could get way above 25!
Maybe you should go 'surface supplied' Peter :D:D;)
Lizardland
27-05-08, 14:38
Stuart, good point re the deco stage - I guess I'll learn that (hopefully) in the practical section of my course!
Hi Claire,
depends on how they teach and what agency. A lot of instructors approach skills from the viewpoint of an individual diver rather than in a team scenario. If its Adv Nitrox or something like that then they probably won't teach lost gas drills anyway as you'd go on backgas and just accept the penalty as it isn't much. The thing to remember is that not all courses are necessarily the best way to do something :D
Cheers,
Stuart
Maybe you should go 'surface supplied' Peter :D:D;)
Don't know anyone who could turn the handles fast enough!
I use an AutoAir and I don't have a problem with that. In an OOA , my buddy gets my main reg ( that's what we are taught to do ) and I get an uncomfy crinkly hose in my gub.
At my current level of diving ( very un-techy ) it is simple and adequate enough.
I too donate from my mouth (oh er misses).
I wouldn't dive with you, simply because you have no alternative but an autoair.
I wouldn't go deeper than 20 metres with somebody that didn't have a separate breathing gas supply either, whether that's twin set or pony it makes no difference - well till 30 metres then its a twinset only, but hey that's just me, its not an agency thing.
Lizardland
27-05-08, 20:02
In my experience, Air2's and Autoairs tend to be overtuned because the manufacturers put such crap valves in them. I found AIR2's especially prone to having the diaphragm sucked inside out so would freeflow very easily. The thing is, you're my bailout so if your kit goes Pete Tong then you're taking my emergency air with you. I'm not worried about you losing all your wind in a freeflow, I'm worried about you losing all mine :D
I too donate from my mouth (oh er misses).
I do as well, by far the best way.
I wouldn't go deeper than 20 metres with somebody that didn't have a separate breathing gas supply either, whether that's twin set or pony it makes no difference - well till 30 metres then its a twinset only, but hey that's just me, its not an agency thing.
I agree with some of that but for me part of that is if I've paid for a boat then I'm not coming up after 25min because I'm diving with someone on a single :D I'm a bit more liberal <30m but 30+ then it's twinset time.
Cheers,
Stuart
hmmm, getting interesting..:D
never been a fan of buddy breathing, dont find it comfortable at all.
just endured trimix training a few weeks ago with TDI.
they train you to share deco gas, i dont agree but did it none the less.
not sure if its part of the training or not, but by this time the instructor was throwing everything at us he could think of and im happy to have gained the confidence from it.
anyway the scenario was this...
i was to deploy my SMB as was my buddy.
we were using spools, i had the bag 1/2 filled and the snap bolt in the other hand.
im on an 80% mix from one stage and the instructor freeflows the backgas by purging the DV and waves the reg around my face so i couldnt see until i shut down the gas. he also removed my mask just for comedy effect.
i then sent the bag up.
mask returned he freeflowed the deco reg and removed my mask again, i had to feather the valve for breath then mask returned.
third part of the excercise, we had to buddy breathe, i had to hold the 2 reels while my buddy shared the air back and forth for 2 minutes.
would have been better if he purged it now and again as i was breathing water and of course i couldnt see the DV comming because surprise, surprise i didnt have any mask.
thought i was going to die and that was practice session in warm clear egyptian waters, wouldnt like to do it for real in the uk.
but, i would like to do it if im trapped by the arm under a cannon & Jessica Alba is delivering the shared air by lip service. :D:D
Personally I think it's a good drill to know you can do when you need to / be comfortable about. Just my personal opinion obviously and I'm not qualified to offer anything more than that. But OOA situations can and do arise where buddy breathing is the only way. I'm not super-comfortable that this is something a future buddy won't have drilled and won't be comfortable with.
What about this scenario:
- Night dive, winter, very cold, pitch dark, deepish, say the Kintyre, say 35m.
- A buddy pair: both with 15L main cylinders and ponies. Both very competent, experienced, well qualified. Let's call them Bill and Ben ;)
- Bill experiences a free flow on his primary DV. Ben sees it happen and comes straight to the rescue, offering his octopus. But Bill has already deployed his pony and kinks his main hose to stop the free flow.
- Bill then releases the kinked hose and the trick seems to have worked, so he removes his pony and starts breathing again off his main reg which seems fine now. Ben relaxes and drops his octopus.
- A minute later the free flow starts again. Bill reaches for his pony but he can't find it now because he just dropped it before and it's floated somewhere behind him.
- Ben sees what's going on and reaches for his octopus but that's gone too.
- These guys are in a cloud of bubbles in cold water on a dodgy, current-swept wreck in the dark. Bill now has no useful air source and Ben has nothing to donate other than his primary, without wasting more valuable seconds looking for a reg he might take ages to locate round his back.
- They do the sensible thing and share the one reg they know works and they know the location of. It's only later on the deco stop that Bill finds Ben's octopus lodged somewhere round at the base of his tank.
Shit happens sometimes, regardless of how careful are. I won't mention any names ... ;)
Shit happens sometimes, regardless of how careful are. I won't mention any names ... ;)
A true story perhaps? :rolleyes:
A true story perhaps? :rolleyes:
... perhaps ...
something along these lines happened to someone you might find stroking his fins somewhere :D
cough... Beagle? cough...! ;)
a bit of a stushy situation to be in but it is easy to see that it can and will happen at some point.
that story certainly has done the rounds in eastwood! although I heard they buddy breathed from 50m to the surface...some elaboration I think.
on a similar note, a certain instructor (who was very good I might add) argued with me that donating the dv from my mouth the an OOA buddy was wrong and I should offer them my octo rather than the primary. I explained that I always state this would be the plan during a buddy check therefore shouldnt be a surprise, but this person wanted to argue with me all day on this one. Needless to say I ignored him, however I did meet him a few years later and we agreed it was probably the right thing to do but not the way it is taught :eek:
The way my instructor pointed it out to me is that if someone is out of air and panicing the first thing they are going to do is grab the dv out of your mouth rather than hunting round your person for an octopus.
The way my instructor pointed it out to me is that if someone is out of air and panicking the first thing they are going to do is grab the dv out of your mouth rather than hunting round your person for an octopus.
My sentiments exactly!
a single tank with a Y valve so they had two first stages.
I used these when Ice Diving, damn good idea in proper cold water.
I too donate from my mouth (oh er misses).
I donate from me mooth too, my primary is on a 1.5, and octo or pony is around my neck
What about this scenario: . . . . . .
Two lost octopus' ? Shit does happen!
Personally, I feel buddy breathing is an essential skill to have, and must be taught. Even if it only increases students confidence in the water, passing a regulator between divers teaches them to stay calm and in control when under duress. Although there are other ways to increase confidence, sharing an air source is ideal, albeit only in shallow water.
The way my instructor pointed it out to me is that if someone is out of air and panicing the first thing they are going to do is grab the dv out of your mouth rather than hunting round your person for an octopus.
What is one of the first skills you are taught on a Rescue Diver course?
What is one of the first skills you are taught on a Rescue Diver course?
Keep a panicing diver at bay and pass your octo?
But if they have just had to swim a few meters with no air and their eyes are like bin lids I'd imagine there will be very little you can do to prevent them taking what they want.
-- A minute later the free flow starts again. Bill reaches for his pony but he can't find it now because he just dropped it before and it's floated somewhere behind him.
- Ben sees what's going on and reaches for his octopus but that's gone too.
-
Thanks Gordon.
At the risk of bringing down all the fury of hell upon me ( like that's ever stopped me ) - If they had an auto-air , it would have been right where they expected it to be.
Would it not ?
Dives for cover :D:D
But a fair point , no ??
Yogi Diver
28-05-08, 08:36
Keep a panicing diver at bay and pass your octo?
But if they have just had to swim a few meters with no air and their eyes are like bin lids I'd imagine there will be very little you can do to prevent them taking what they want.
This is why I usually make sure my buddy knows where my Octopus and/or Pony Reg is , (and its NOT in the so called "Golden Triangle" where it will get caught up in my torch and camera lanyards!) and ADVISE them to help themselves to my Octopus/Pony Reg if they need it. I am prepared to donate my primary if need be but prefer to keep my head and ensure that my priority is helping them rather than having to waste time hunting for my secondary.
Think I'm probably in the minority on this one but, as we are quoting Diver Rescue teachings, what is the first rule of any rescue?:cool:
Thanks Gordon.
At the risk of bringing down all the fury of hell upon me ( like that's ever stopped me ) - If they had an auto-air , it would have been right where they expected it to be.
Would it not ?
Dives for cover :D:D
But a fair point , no ??
Possibly, in the early nineties when lots of people ran an Air2 off their pony since the BCD was only for surface support, but that was damn near twenty years ago!:D
With a long hose set up your secondary is bungied round your neck so it is always right where you expect to be too.
OT but I reckon virtually every diver could switch to a long hose, donate from the mouth system for the cost of;
1 long hose
1 tie wrap
40cm of bungee
Under 30 quid if you shop around. I probably committing sacrilege but I reckon a hog loop would work with a conventional BCD.
Back on topic;
The three the crucial things about buddy breathing are that both divers must be trained, practiced and competent for it to work successfully. If one of the divers isn’t then it will go wrong. Unless you practice on virtually every dive and only dive with one particular buddy then the chances of getting those three factors right are slim. It's not impossible, as people in this thread have shown, but I wouldn't bet my life on it.
Scotsac may well live in a world where every Scotsac diver only ever dives with other Scotsac divers who are trained, practiced and competent and that world may be flat; but I live in the real world in which you could have an experienced diver who did the buddy breathing part of his training years ago leading a newly-minted and freshly-trained-in-buddy-breathing novice diver, one they’ve never dived or practiced buddy breathing with. Do you think the three crucial factors will be present under these circumstances? In addition, do you think that those factors may be affected by whether or not both the divers are calm?
Also in the real world Scotsac divers dive with non-Scotsac divers who may not have been trained in buddy-breathing or might have been but using an entirely different technique.
I learned to buddy-breathe as part of my BSAC training and I taught it both in professional BSAC schools and in clubs and, from the very first time I saw it demonstrated, I thought it was an extremely dodgy procedure. The other thing I noticed, particularly when teaching in a school, was that two candidates from different clubs would have basically the same skill but with subtle differences. Differences on how to hold on to each other, how to hold the regulator etc that invariably caused the first few practice attempts to be CFs. What if the first time two divers in this skill had to do it was a real emergency?
In my view, buddy-breathing is a dangerous anachronism from the early days of diving. It has no place in what some would term ‘recreational’ diving and a very limited possible role in ‘technical’ diving.
I would welcome Scotsac into the 21st Century, if they drop it, but I have little doubt that there will be acrimonious debate and schism over this issue.
Lizardland
28-05-08, 09:40
But OOA situations can and do arise where buddy breathing is the only way. I'm not super-comfortable that this is something a future buddy won't have drilled and won't be comfortable with.
No doubt buddy breathing did save "Bill & Ben"'s arses and through the benefit of hindsight and sitting on my arse in front of a computer it was an avoidable situation. Having the back-up regs on gags round the neck rather than free and using the primary for donation would have certainly have stopped the situation escalating.
C'mon, let's have a DIR ruck :D
The way my instructor pointed it out to me is that if someone is out of air and panicing the first thing they are going to do is grab the dv out of your mouth rather than hunting round your person for an octopus.
That's one factor but there are tons of other reasons: your buddy is breathing it so you know it works, how many times have you practiced an OOA and found the octopus full of sand or wet breathing?; you know the gas is breathable because your buddy is breathing it; you don't have to look about the "golden triangle" to find it, how many different ways of attaching an octopus do you see on a boat, some in holders, some stuffed in pockets, some in bungees, etc; you can find it blind.
Thanks Gordon.
At the risk of bringing down all the fury of hell upon me ( like that's ever stopped me ) - If they had an auto-air , it would have been right where they expected it to be.
Would it not ?
Dives for cover :D:D
But a fair point , no ??
It would have been where you thought, but why keep the worst regulator you have for emergencies? I keep my best regulator as my backup, it's on a bungee round my neck and I know exactly where it is.
I would welcome Scotsac into the 21st Century, if they drop it, but I have little doubt that there will be acrimonious debate and schism over this issue.
I look forward to the formation of BBScotSAC! :D
Lizardland
28-05-08, 10:06
In my view, buddy-breathing is a dangerous anachronism from the early days of diving. It has no place in what some would term ‘recreational’ diving and a very limited possible role in ‘technical’ diving.
Couldn't agree more. I'm not sure it even has a place in technical diving.
I would welcome Scotsac into the 21st Century, if they drop it, but I have little doubt that there will be acrimonious debate and schism over this issue.
I've heard they are also planning on dropping lead boots, hand cranked air pumps and want to remove "here be dragons" off dive site charts for the east coast... But the "facial hair being made non-compulsory" proposal I think is a step too far...
I look forward to the formation of BBScotSAC! :D
and then we would truly have "The governing body for recreational scuba diving in Scotland"
Mr Flibble
28-05-08, 19:20
AHHH the good ole Homer 'If a jobs too difficult then it's not worth doing ' Simpson approach to training. Sadly prevalent in a great many areas of our litigious society.
A certain west coast school also don't use SMB's at a slipway because their ..cough.. 'Instructors' find them difficult to use.
Maybe it's safer not to do it, as many other skills seem to be falling by the wayside (Bouyancy control for instance).
Just make training as easy as possible not as safe as possible.
My view?
Buddy breathing, if nothing else, builds confidence.
Modern configurations 'should' deem it excess to requirements, but you just never know. I'd rather be trained in and comfortable with a skill than wishing I had been trained in it if the proverbial hits the fan.
30m OOA assisted ascents are a bad idea for a trainee, most "instructors' would probably balls it up. Keep it in but have it 0 - 10m. A skill is still a skill, used or not.
How many of us often reverse round corners etc, but it's still in the driving test. WHY? to increase driving skills, car control, awareness, confidence.
dive granny
28-05-08, 22:47
Think I'm probably in the minority on this one but, as we are quoting Diver Rescue teachings, what is the first rule of any rescue?:cool:[/QUOTE]
DON'T BECOME A CASUALTY YOURSELF:(
Yogi Diver
29-05-08, 08:18
Think I'm probably in the minority on this one but, as we are quoting Diver Rescue teachings, what is the first rule of any rescue?:cool:
DON'T BECOME A CASUALTY YOURSELF:([/quote]
:):cool:
AHHH the good ole Homer 'If a jobs too difficult then it's not worth doing ' Simpson approach to training. Sadly prevalent in a great many areas of our litigious society.
A certain west coast school also don't use SMB's at a slipway because their ..cough.. 'Instructors' find them difficult to use.
Maybe it's safer not to do it, as many other skills seem to be falling by the wayside (Bouyancy control for instance).
Just make training as easy as possible not as safe as possible.
My view?
Buddy breathing, if nothing else, builds confidence.
Modern configurations 'should' deem it excess to requirements, but you just never know. I'd rather be trained in and comfortable with a skill than wishing I had been trained in it if the proverbial hits the fan.
30m OOA assisted ascents are a bad idea for a trainee, most "instructors' would probably balls it up. Keep it in but have it 0 - 10m. A skill is still a skill, used or not.
How many of us often reverse round corners etc, but it's still in the driving test. WHY? to increase driving skills, car control, awareness, confidence.
Having carefully read through the thread I can't see any post that suggests that buddy-breathing shouldn't be taught because it's too difficult or time-consuming. I addition I don’t really see that the increased risk of legal action (which is largely a perceived rather than a real risk) is a driver for or against any particular element of training.
I don't think the analogy with a particular dive school and SMBs is valid. An SMB isn't an emergency piece of kit and deployment is frequent on many dives and, to my mind, pretty much an essential on shallow dives in the approaches to a slipway (I’d like to see the Risk Assessment on that one!). Unless you're in the habit of running out of air regularly; that cannot be said of buddy-breathing.
Similarly the driving analogy is, in my view, inappropriate in the way you've applied it. However if you think of say, reverse parking, as being the equivalent of buddy-breathing then it is clear that on the day they passed their driving test every driver could reverse park to an acceptable standard but, unless you reverse park frequently, it quickly becomes a more difficult skill once more despite the fact that you have had your confidence built throughout your driving lessons and your test. How often do you see qualified and experienced drivers confidently attempting a reverse park and confidently making a pig's ear of it? It isn’t that they’re bad drivers, it is simply that they’re trying to do something they haven’t practiced.
Why is buddy-breathing the only skill anyone ever mentions as a 'confidence builder'? Why aren't commonly used skills such as; buoyancy control or gas monitoring or even mask-clearing ever thought of as 'confidence builders'?
To perhaps clarify the argument; I suggest re-reading Gareth's post in particular and I'll repeat the point I made in my earlier post; if you can't guarantee the three crucial elements are present then there is a significant chance of buddy-breathing going awry and, in expending more time on teaching a skill that requires those elements, you reinforce the likelihood that someone will resort to buddy-breathing in a real emergency with a significant risk of failure instead of reinforcing AAS use which has a significant chance of success. Those are very different points to suggesting that it's too difficult to teach and therefore shouldn't be taught.
I was lucky enough to attend the BSAC ITDC at which John Kermode (the lead National Instructor on the group considering the issue) previewed the change in BSAC policy and the rationale behind it prior to the roll-out at DOC. There was considerable discussion amongst the attendees (who were all BSAC Advanced Instructors or National Instructors) and not one person brought up the 'Homer Simpson' argument, as you put it. As experienced and active instructors teaching buddy-breathing was bread-and-butter stuff to everyone there but looking at the Incidents Reports (which is not exclusively about BSAC members remember) it was clear that no matter how much time and care went into teaching the skill it suffered the highest rate of 'drop-off' i.e. divers who were well rehearsed in buddy-breathing during training would, when faced with a real emergency, have difficulty in successfully managing to buddy-breathe and, the longer the time between training and the incident, the greater risk of failure. Furthermore, it was clear that since it took more time to teach to a proficient level during training then that had the unfortunate side-effect of reinforcing buddy-breathing as a conditioned response to being OOA instead of AAS use. In short, you can use the skill as a 'confidence builder' if you want but, unless practiced on virtually every dive, all you actually develop is a misplaced and conditioned confidence that, in a real emergency, it is the correct response and that it will work.
In light of that BSAC took the decision to drop buddy-breathing and, in addition, to proscribe teaching it at any level. Once you understand the rationale it becomes clear that teaching it for a particular diving grade or only teaching it in shallow water actually offers no advantage and is, in fact, counterproductive i.e. you end up with higher qualification divers, the ones who are most likely to be leading trainees, conditioned into a response that the trainee/less experienced or qualified diver has no training in at all and which the higher qualified diver, although confident, will most likely not be very competent at.
I don't like Agency-bashing and this really isn't aimed at Scotsac as an organisation but is more about an attitude that seems to be principally prevalent amongst some Scotsac divers. Their attitude is that BSAC dropped buddy-breathing because BSAC Instructors found it too difficult and time-consuming to teach. Of course that isn't the case but I have found that it is mainly Scotsac divers believe this to be true and, because some Scotsac members have misunderstood the rationale behind BSAC dropping the skill, they don't want to be tarred with the same brush, a brush that is entirely of the product of the minds of some Scotsac divers.
Hick , I don't disagree with anything you have said , other than that I (certainly) and as far as I can tell no other Scotsac member has used this thread to attack BSAC for dropping BB training.
On the contrary , it seems to me that we are all pretty much agreed that it is out-dated.
I personally think it is right to be dropped from the Sport Diver training and that there would be some value in maintaining it in the Master diver training , but I certainly wouldn't make a strong case for that.
Cheers JB.
Lizardland
29-05-08, 16:56
I think the "difficult to teach" argument is a very good example as to why it should be dropped. If it's difficult to teach it's going to be difficult to use, it's going to be difficult to maintain proficiency. I don't get the confidence building idea, as Hick says it would better spending time teaching simple prevention.
There was resistance to nitrox, there was resistance to using wings, there was resistance to dive computers. Things move on, diving progresses. Just because something was done that way 20yrs ago doesn't mean that 20yrs on it is still the right way to go.
as far as I can tell no other Scotsac member has used this thread to attack BSAC for dropping BB training.
I made no specific reference to any post or poster in this thread but my point is based on the entirely subjective basis of my observations of people in real life and on comments made by others elsewhere on t'interweb.
Fortunately CA is one place you can still have reasoned debate.
I think the "difficult to teach" argument is a very good example as to why it should be dropped. If it's difficult to teach it's going to be difficult to use, it's going to be difficult to maintain proficiency. I don't get the confidence building idea, as Hick says it would better spending time teaching simple prevention.
I think there are still things that are essential and awkward to teach but should still be taught but I take your point.
There was resistance to nitrox, there was resistance to using wings, there was resistance to dive computers. Things move on, diving progresses. Just because something was done that way 20yrs ago doesn't mean that 20yrs on it is still the right way to go.
Yes, twenty years ago we thought nothing of diving the back end of the Kintyre with planned stops on nothing more than a single 12. It was just how things were, wouldn't do it today though!:D
Fortunately CA is one place you can still have reasoned debate.
Damn , when did that happen ?
Bet it was when I was in Egypt.
It was , wasn't it.
Bu66er , that's the last time I leave you guys unattended again.
NOW OWN UP , WHO WAS IT ?
:D:D
I personally think it is right to be dropped from the Sport Diver training and that there would be some value in maintaining it in the Master diver training , but I certainly wouldn't make a strong case for that.
Glad you wouldn't make a case for it because it has no place being in any training curriculum that is for decompression trained divers that includes sports divers never mind master divers.
30/40 metres with deco on a single cylinder = mental
30/40 metres with deco on a single first stage = mental
I think this is often overlooked when comparing PADI with BSAC / SCOTSAC.
PADI RDP is a no decompression table, therefore any PADI Qualified diver hasn't been trained to do decompression stops.
Scotsac / BSAC tables utilise a " bend and mend algorithm" with mandatory decompression stops & Scotsac / BSAC divers in theory should understand the greater risk of this type of diving.
Would you really want to buddy breathe while in decompression? Do you really want it to be your automatic response?
I am multi agency (Ive got plastic from PADI (lots of plastic), Scotsac, TDI and none yet from GUE(wasn't good enough) and open minded when it comes to diver training.
I've practised buddy breathing a fair amount whilst doing my DM intern-ship, including the DM Stress test and again DM'ing on Open water courses (PADI at last time I checked standards had Buddy breathing as optional for an Open Water course) I was usually the Buddy for this skill whilst the Instructor managed the open water environment.
I've also practised it to demonstration quality for my IDC and IE.
Would I want to do it in real life? hell no. Even in a pool, it takes time to get into a comfortable rhythm sharing with each other and I've had people keep the reg for far too long and I am sure every time I have it for my two breathes it probably feels far too long to the person with no reg.
If it where up to me (I think, your probably glad its not) I would make it mandatory to have two first stages and a second stage on each one for any diver doing greater than 20 metres never mind doing deco, cause if your doing deco id mandate a manifolded twinset and proper gas planning, how many sport divers actually under stand and use regularly proper dive / gas planning techniques? How many actually just say go in, turn round come back.
Do you know what your minimum gas is to ascend? Do you know what your SAC rate is? Do you know what your SAC rate is under duress? Do you know what your SAC and your buddy's SAC is? What about Both Under Duress? What's the minimum Gas needed to Ascend now? what's your Ascent Plan, Can you get back to the Start point? Must you get back to the start point? Can you surface at anytime? Must you put up a dsmb?
Doing all the above Buddy Breathing?
F*ck that!
I'm still newish to diving (3 years, 250+ dives) and have done hardly any planned decompression dives, in all honesty I don't think I am up to it yet, I'm trying and I practice a couple of skills on each and every single dive, whether that's valve drill, dsmb launch, back kicks, oral wing inflate, mask flood, backup torch deployment, cramp removal, Reg change over. I take the opportunity when I can.
Thanks Davie , some good points well made.
I'm a bit puzzled at your references to decompression diving though.
As far as I know , ScotSAC only allow no-deco diving at any level of qualification , even up to BDO level.
Could be wrong , anyone know for sure ?
I certainly am NOT qualified or 'allowed' to engage in any dive with planned decompression.
Nor would I.
I have neither the training nor adequate equipment.
( Yes - I can use deco tables , but that's not what I'm refering to ).
At the risk of repeating myself , I don't consider BB a good technique for dealing with OOA and would only imagine it being used successfull under the most favourable of circumstances and not the ones we usually encounter. As you rightly say , for the more 'techie' folks doing deeper more demanding dives , it is possibly more of a liability than a life-saver.
For my part , it doesn't figure in my plans in any way. I will always have AASource/AAsupply , as will my buddy.
However I prefer to think that if it came to the crunch and I had to BB , then at least I have practiced it to some extent.
Or maybe that's false optimism :O)
JohnnyB.
Lizardland
30-05-08, 10:27
how many sport divers actually under stand and use regularly proper dive / gas planning techniques? How many actually just say go in, turn round come back.
I think that is far more important. Knowing how much air you have available, knowing you have enough to cope with an emergency and knowing exactly when you are going to cross the threshold into not having enough are far more important, I find knowing these improves my confidence on any dive. It sounds a bit anal but it takes a minute or two to do. I was on Elaine's boat a few years ago and one guy ran out of air on all three dives, and he was at Dive Leader level. I was on another boat in the SOM not that long ago when there were three out of airs (one of which was a BSAC instructor). Not freeflows or kit failures, simple not knowing how long a cylinder was going to last or not checking gauges.
Knowing that I'm going to be able to share air with someone in exactly the same way no matter who that person is would be helpful too, rather than the mish-mash of styles now. On a boat of 12 divers I bet you'll find about 6 different ways of rigging their AAS's.
I'm a bit puzzled at your references to decompression diving though.
As far as I know , ScotSAC only allow no-deco diving at any level of qualification , even up to BDO level.
Could be wrong , anyone know for sure ?
I certainly am NOT qualified or 'allowed' to engage in any dive with planned decompression.
Strange....
If your not qualified for Deco just what exactly are you qualified to do? Have a look at your tables, Can you find something, anything in the Sport diver training / qualification that says your only allowed to dive to a one minute mandatory stop? Hence your trained to use the buhlmann decompression table and are therefore trained and qualified in its use.
Anything above that one minute mandatory stop is a decompression obligation.
I could be wrong and more than happy for somebody to speak up.
http://personal4.iddeo.es/roqueta/tablas.htm
I've never done a "planned" deco dive ... but i've done dives, such as in scapa, where i knew there would be deco, and I knew roughly what the dive plan was and discussed that with my buddy. I tend to keep an eye on my computer and also be mindful of the rule of thirds. I know roughly how long it will take me and my buddy to get back to the shot and my computer tells me how long i'll be on the shot so I can work it all out on the basis of ready-reckoning. I also factor in my knowledge of that buddy's air consumption. If it's a new buddy, then I would be much more conservative. Not perfect, I suppose. Does this break SSAC rules. I'd never thought so, but maybe I'm wrong ...
:confused:
Gord, I dive with roughly the same values as that too. Anything out with my normal diving I am usually a lot more conservative on.
Does this break SSAC rules. I'd never thought so, but maybe I'm wrong ...
:confused:
I think this is a branch rule and maybe not a general Scotsac rule.
I have never really questioned it to be honest.
Our club dives to 50 bar OR end of no-deco time ( as shown on your computer ).
In the type of diving we do , you almost always hit 50bar ( or get cold ) before you're into deco anyway.
Thanks for bringing that up - as I say - I had never really thought about it.
All the same , I don't think I will be planning any deep deco dives on a single 12l.
Cheers.
Lizardland
30-05-08, 14:41
I've never done a "planned" deco dive ... but i've done dives, such as in scapa, where i knew there would be deco, and I knew roughly what the dive plan was and discussed that with my buddy. I tend to keep an eye on my computer and also be mindful of the rule of thirds. I know roughly how long it will take me and my buddy to get back to the shot and my computer tells me how long i'll be on the shot so I can work it all out on the basis of ready-reckoning. I also factor in my knowledge of that buddy's air consumption. If it's a new buddy, then I would be much more conservative. Not perfect, I suppose. Does this break SSAC rules. I'd never thought so, but maybe I'm wrong ...
:confused:
How do you know how much deco you're going to be doing, how much air you'll need for it, how much air you'll need if you have to share, how is you're deco going to be affected if something holds you up or slows you on the way back to the shot, how do you know you're computer hasn't dropped a bollock during the dive, etc.
Perhaps it's because I've never dived in a club environment, all my deco training has been through IANTD, but I wouldn't be comfortable getting in the water not knowing any of that, certainly not without knowing exactly what my deco plan would be. If you don't know how long your air is going to last on the bottom without endangering the deco then you are just opening yourself up to a whole load of other issues. I think moving into deco is a good example of where "bought" training has the advantage.
Cheers,
Stuart
How do you know how much deco you're going to be doing, how much air you'll need for it, how much air you'll need if you have to share, how is you're deco going to be affected if something holds you up or slows you on the way back to the shot, how do you know you're computer hasn't dropped a bollock during the dive, etc.
Stuart
You're right. No doubt about that.
I think that that approach demands a certain temperament and discipline though. Not to mention the training. Not a disposition that the majority of club divers possess. Maybe that's why the "no deco" rule exists at Scotsac... if it exists ... :confused: although we're not clear on that ...
Can anyone clarify?
You're right. No doubt about that.
I think that that approach demands a certain temperament and discipline though. Not to mention the training. Not a disposition that the majority of club divers possess. Maybe that's why the "no deco" rule exists at Scotsac... if it exists ... :confused: although we're not clear on that ...
Can anyone clarify?
I definitely think this is something that needs clarification within the Scotsac regime. My understanding of it is that Sport Divers should not plan deco dives, but master divers can.
But who knows, I haven't managed to find any literature from Scotsac (on their website etc.) that actually states this.
Lots of interesting discussion.
The need for auxiliary equipment (auto air or an equivalent, air cylinder etc) depends on the mean number of dives to failure of the primary equipment.
SSAC did a survey some time ago and found the probability of running out of air or 1st stage failure or 2nd stage failure was about 0.0001 for each type of incident.
I suspect that if the survey was repeated it might be found that the probability of failure is now much less than 0.0001
As an individual, at what probability do you say that it's not worth carrying the extra equipment for the type of diving being carried out?
Lizardland
02-06-08, 00:10
As an individual, at what probability do you say that it's not worth carrying the extra equipment for the type of diving being carried out?
A big part of my job is spent doing risk analysis on industrial projects. Probability is meaningless in risk assessment terms unless you look at the seriousness of the event's outcome. For example, a structure collapsing is rare but the seriousness is huge so it scores very highly in risk assessment terms, hence all the various BS's and COP's for structural design which need to be applied.
A torch failing is a fairly common event but it's seriousness on most dives is nothing. A reg failing may be a very rare event but the implication is massively serious if it does happen. All it takes is one component to fail only once for it to happen. I don't expect a regulator that has cost maybe £80 to produce to be a safety critical system.
For me, I don't like diving more than about 10-15m on a single cylinder because I know I can make it to the surface on a breath if I can't share with a buddy and I'm unlikely to have any deco problems. 15-30m I dive on a twinset because I'm not confident on doing a CESA from there, there is likely to be some sort of deco "niggle" if I did, I've got plenty of air to share with a buddy (and vice versa), it makes air management easier, etc. 40m and deeper then I dive on a rebreather with enough OC gas to get me to the surface through whatever deco because it gives me many more options than a twinset does in deep water. 30-40m is a bit of a grey area for me, I'd prefer a twinset but if there is a good reason to use a RB then I do.
I can cope with just about anything failing underwater as an inconvenience except for what I'm breathing. If that goes, no matter how remote the chance of it happening is, then I am bolloxed. So for me the extra hassle is worth it despite the low probability of it happening.
Cheers,
Stuart
Hi Stuart
You've put it in a nut shell, "I can cope with---"
I wonder how many other divers have given the same consideration to equipment needs?
I wonder how many novice divers buy equipment because they have been advised they 'need' it by a sales person?
Yogi Diver
02-06-08, 08:25
I wonder how many novice divers buy equipment because they have been advised they 'need' it by a sales person?
Probably most of them. Who else gives them advice unless they are within a club system?
I believed every word my PADI Instructor uttered when I did my OW many years ago. His word was law!! Luckily for me he was one of the good ones but you can be sure there are some rogues out there. PADI's Divemaster and IDC training is not just about teaching people to dive. A large chunk of it is showing you how to "add value" to the Dive centre you are working for by selling kit.
I wonder how many novice divers buy equipment because they have been advised they 'need' it by a sales person?
I can't say I've ever experianced or heard of anyone being sold anything they didn't need in a diving. Pushed in the direction of certain manufacturers, yes.
Due to the initial cost most beginners you see usually beg steal and borrow for the first while until they have built up the basics. By then most have a fair idea what is required for their diving at the time.
It's later on that the magpie effect kicks in :rolleyes:
Lizardland
02-06-08, 09:23
Yeah, I'd agree it's probably after the beginner stage. It's not just sales people but usually well meaning peers as well. I guess there's also probably a lot of influence from books and mags too in the way that other divers are shown. Most beginners have fairly simple, cleanly set up kit, it's the divers that have gone beyond that stage and start having Christmas tree kit because every failure point has to be mitigated. It's usually the addition of a pony where it all starts to snowball, I've never seen a nice, simple setup that I thought looked good. A lot of them look like someone has poured a bucket of hoses over the diver, I've seen more than a few with four 2nd stages on a main and pony rig.
A lot of people like to play "what if" and think the solution is to add another piece of kit without either looking at why the "what if" situation occurred or thinking the most obvious solution through.
I went through a period of kit overload like a lot of people do and after I saw some ridiculous photos of myself my thinking became how much of this crap can I get rid of? I like the minimum amount of kit I can get away with whilst still being able to survive serious failures.
Perhaps stage 2 of the "what's in my kit box" thread should be "why what's in my kit box is there".
Cheers,
Stuart
Perhaps stage 2 of the "what's in my kit box" thread should be "why what's in my kit box is there".
Could be an interesting thread! Post a pic of yourself kitted up and talk through your set up. So long as the comments remained constructive it could serve to make current or future setups safer/simpler/cheaper.
Dive Tramp
02-06-08, 11:27
Its quite a balancing act isn't it? Between Christmas Tree Diver and Justin Diver (just in case ;))