View Full Version : the black room...
A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away……
Set off bound for the east coast 4 intrepid explorers pursued some challenging diving, challenging for them at least after having been warned off the east coast -by other less than supportive but perhaps wise divers- due to its bad viz, treacherous currents and lack of life…
Boldly going where (evidentially) no other club diver (at that time) had went before, the Blae rock was only a RHIB ride away…
It was a cold day, I forget which month but the temperature was about 4 degrees, that I wont forget, early in the year, back end of winter perhaps.
The dive didn’t go to plan, even the simplest concept of dropping down the shot-line and meeting at the bottom went wrong, how simple that could be to get wrong, I don’t know but it did happen.
The 4 divers were not all that experienced, think I had around 30-40 dives at most under my belt, 20 of which were blue water, 2 other divers were quite similar by experience, perhaps even less, the most experienced perhaps having less then 100 dives at that time with lots of them in blue water.
One diver bailed on the shot-line due to having problems equalising & returned to the boat.
The 3 others then eventually had a good dive around the Blae rock which turned out to have good viz, little current and loaded with life.
The Royal Archer of the coast of Burntisland was the scene for the 2nd dive of the day.
After a backbreaking RHIB ride, which seemed to take forever we eventually dropped a shot-line on the wreck.
The first group of divers dropped in, none of them related to our group and all looking very ‘technical’ unlike us, feeling a little under dressed with singles and ponies.
Our turn was soon to come, perhaps 10 minutes behind the first group we eventually dropped in as a group of 3 divers, one diver sitting it out due to his former ear problems on the previous dive.
Down the shot-line we descended when………………
To be continued…
Come on, you can write the next bit - if you're in a hotel room somewhere on your road trip.
im on an unscheduled stop at home for the weekend... road trip resumes on monday.
and im trying to watch 'my name is earl' as i wrire this..:D
cant believe earl got 2 years in prison... :eek:
Down the shot-line we descended when we eventually reached the deck at 30m, our first mission was to fold in the anchor blades so it could be retrieved by the RHIB above at the end of the dive.
I took it upon myself to fold the blades in thus causing an almighty storm cloud in the already bad viz conditions.
Job complete I couldn’t see much, only a small flash of a bright fin amongst the silt, I proceeded to follow the fin in the hope the viz would get better.
The viz remained the same for what was probably a few minutes, perhaps longer, it certainly felt longer than a few minutes, I remember bashing in to iron while in pursuit of the now disappearing fin.
I was now somewhere near amidships when I eventually caught up with the fin, which is now attached to the foot of one of the first group of divers.
My breathe rate increases as the group bag off and ascend in to the inky black water above, their torch lights fading to a blip all too quickly.
I’m now alone for the first time in my life on a dive at 30m, the viz is crap, its dark, cold and I have to now make a decision for myself.
I start to contemplate; do I look for the shot-line? Do I look for my buddies? Do I free ascend?
Free ascend, never done that before and don’t really fancy it from 30m to be quite honest.
Really wished I had kept following the fin and went up with them but that option was now no longer available to me.
Ok take charge of the situation and make a decision… I have 100 bar in a 10 litre cylinder and I’m 17 minutes in to the dive at 30m.
OMG 17 minutes in to the dive, FFS I’m 1 minute from deco and never done deco before, do I have time to look for a shot-line or my buddies? Where the hell are they and why are they not looking for me?
My heads now racing and the gravity of the situation is increasing at the same rate as my breathing…I don’t feel too good about this, I’m way out my depth of experience!
Make a decision, make a decision, make a decision…
Too late… the decision was made for me when I lost………………………
to be continued.
OMG can't believe Earl got 2 years - he's one of the good guys,
OK time for installment 3 - you obviously didn't die but sounds like it got pretty close.
Yogi Diver
22-03-08, 06:40
OK time for installment 3 - you obviously didn't die but sounds like it got pretty close.
Are you sure? Remember Stewart has a Tardis!!
Are you sure? Remember Stewart has a Tardis!!
No he actually is just that small.
:p
part 3
Too late… the decision was made for me when I lost the wreck, where the hell did it go?
Was there a moment ago, I looked at my gauges, looked back and it’s gone. Wow-sh1t!
Did I drift off it? Did I ascend and now can’t see it? Did I swim off the end? Did I swim over a hole? Who knows but I do know that now I’m not making it back to the shot-line.
First time free ascent from 30m, here we come!
I inflate my suit and start to fin up, leaving 30m depth made me feel elated and I’m now at 27m, things are going well, keep this ascent rate and we are good.
Back at 30m again, things don’t feel great but they do when I reach 24m soon afterwards.
Fining up but sinking back to near 30m is now becoming more and more frequent.
Several attempts later I’m now at 31m and this is my deepest dive of my career, I can hardly make out my gauges, the water is pitch black, like being in a black room, I have 70 bar and I’m bricking it, increase breathe rate just adds to the now very stressful situation.
All stop, think, inflate suit and do nothing, this will make you float…it can’t fail!
Inflate suit and relax, I start to ascend, passing through 20m I gather a little speed, my Suunto seems happy at this as it plays a nice bleeping tune back to me.
I try to dump air from my cuff dump, nothing comes out. I shake my left arm vigorously (no I wasn’t doing that) but no air is escaping.
I’m starting to gather more speed and things are getting tense.
I really wished I hadn’t left my SMB in the car boot at this moment, would it have helped, I doubt it, I had never deployed it before but I had read about it.
My two buddies had an SMB and were now at this time using it, they hadn’t found the shot-line either as they too had lost the wreck around the stern section but were in a far better predicament than I was.
Passing through 10m depth my suit transformed in to a starfish, arms and legs thrust full of air as I frantically try to dump air, but nothing is coming out.
The inky black waters of below now changing to a welcoming, but at what cost, bottle green.
To be continued.
dive granny
22-03-08, 15:08
Oh my God! scary stuff:eek:
Come on Come on
im still writing the ending... wonder if he dies... :eek::D:D:D
im still writing the ending... wonder if he dies... :eek::D:D:D
He bl00dy well will if he doesn't hurry up :D:D
What a cliffhanger :)
You cant keep us in suspense like that !!!!!!!!!!!!!:eek:
The inky black waters of below now changing to a welcoming, but at what cost, bottle green.
A lot of things started to make sense at 10m, the glowing light from below between my fins was the first clue, it was around about that point that I realised I was inverted.
Air is now coming out my dump, its also blowing out my cuffs as I try to turn and stick my arms up.
No safety stop on this dive, we are going right to the surface whether we like it or not!
I won the race against a few of my bubbles, as I hit the surface fins first, the straggling bubbles finally caught up.
The sun was shining; it was warm on my face & blinding as I raised my arms to signal the boat with a two-arm distress wave.
I lie on my back with my demand valve in my mouth, I feel dizzy as my head sinks back under the water. A sharp tug on my fin brings me back to the surface from my non-diving companion; soon I was in the RHIB. Questions were now being asked on board.
Did you come up straight from the wreck? NO! Did you do a safety stop? YES. Are you sure? YES.
I lied through my teeth, I was in denial of the whole situation and as I didn’t really know all that much about DCI then I must be fine as I’m back on the surface & I didn’t want to cause any fuss.
I never mentioned it to my buddies on the way home, just sat there quiet as a mouse hoping everything would be fine.
Nothing bad did happen, other than the next day at work a few people commented on how grey my face looked, I didn’t doubt them.
Looking back, nothing really happened on that day that an experienced, prepared diver couldn’t have dealt with, something I would now take in my stride. My biggest misfortune was my lack of experience, gung-ho attitude, thought I was bullet proof and being very far outside my comfort zone, further than I had ever been before.
It took me around three months or so to get over that incident mentally, perhaps longer.
I started small again, back to basics. I dived every week and hated it, fear was inside me all through the dives but I was determined not to let it beat me.
What a numpty I was that day! :rolleyes:
Yep free ascent's in the forth a wee bit trickier than following a slope up- from 30M in one of the lochs :eek: i used to enjoy the descent and spend the dive worrying about the ascent.
Excellent tale Stewart and a bumper helping of 'Dave ya jew' as they sometimes say in France.
My very first dive as a qualified ( in inverted commas as I am fast coming to realise ) diver was the Royal.
Never been on a RHIB before , never wreck dived before , never been deeper that 16m before.
Still , in I went , bold as brass , dip**it boat handler dropped me downstream of the shot by about 20m and by the time I eventually finned out to it I was about ready for peggin out and down about 50bar.
Never mind.
Down we go.
Vis not bad.
Buddy check 'Ok' at the bottom off the shot and we are off , 30+ m.
Vis not bad and I'm quite happy.
Even managing to shoot some video with my Fuji f700 - don't get on the wrong side of me or I'll make you watch it someday :O)
Quite the happy bunny and being 'oh so careful' to stay right up the backside of my , very experienced , dive buddy.
Until we come to what looks like the remnants of a cabin or something.
Just looks like Santas grotto to me , fantastic , and I stop to have a good old gander.
Not more that 15 seconds , scouts honour.
Look up and the buddy has gone.
No prob , know which way were were trecking , fin along for a few seconds and take a scope.
Nope :O(
Fin back , do a 360 visual.
Uh-uh.
Flash torch about a bit.
Turn torch off to supress back-scatter and look about a bit.
Zippo.
Check air , 80.
Check computer , 4 mins no-deco.
First time its been off 99 in its puff , OMG real diving :O)
What to do - no brainer - over to you Yazz - the only way is up , baby !
First ever free ascent , bit of air in the jacket , hand on the dump , eyes glued on the computer. Glad I got rid of the Sunnto and got one with a backlight.
No panic , up nice and easy.
Hit 3m ,put the brakes on ( fan fins out ) , over dump , back down a bit - bu**er , fin up , sort it out.
Deco over , fin up , hand over head , spin 360, look out above.
Hit the surface and inflate the stab.
Buddy is about 10m away , he looks a million times more worried than I am.
Probably thinking he will never live down drowning me on my first real dive :O)
Is that odd ?
I have never felt panicked or anxious when diving ( yet ) , even when things are going 'not at all to plan' , or its pitch dark or I'm finning hard as I can against the current and the view of the sea bed doesn't seem to be changing.
Pi55ed off , angry , cold - yes.
First thing I always say to myself when things are a bit hairy is 'Don't Panic'
Not in the Clive Dunn , Dads Army way but more - 'Don't panic - it's the PANIC that will kill you ,not the situation , so don't let it.
Is this normal ?
I feel like I'm missing out on something now :O)
For my first few foray's into 30M dives (especially in poor vis) i was nervous and always felt i was seconds from impending disaster,then i got a pony and chilled :)
For my first few foray's into 30M dives (especially in poor vis) i was nervous and always felt i was seconds from impending disaster,then i got a pony and chilled :)
That shows perception and intelligence.
Now why didn't I feel like that ...............?
First ever free ascent , bit of air in the jacket , hand on the dump , eyes glued on the computer. Glad I got rid of the Sunnto and got one with a backlight.
No panic , up nice and easy.
my troubles came that day due to being inverted without knowing it (in the black room), every time i finned up, i went deeper... i was fighting against myself until i relaxed, then i went from around 24m/30m or so to the surface inverted.
For my first few foray's into 30M dives (especially in poor vis) i was nervous and always felt i was seconds from impending disaster,then i got a pony and chilled :)
Very good point.
You have to have confidence in your equipment , yourself ( your training for us newbies ) , your buddy.
Its all about state of mind I think ??
Until we come to what looks like the remnants of a cabin or something.
Just looks like Santas grotto to me , fantastic , and I stop to have a good old gander. , bit of air in the jacket , hand on the dump
That'll be the stern then :D it's stunning.
Interesting you put air in your jacket to begin your ascent,only ever use mine on the surface.
'Don't panic - it's the PANIC that will kill you ,not the situation , so don't let it.
Is this normal ?
I feel like I'm missing out on something now :O)
I've been described as a fairly laid back "nothing is a problem" chap but I have found myself with a crashed bottle on a good few of my dives. Not as bad now right enough, but I'm happier with my own abilities now.
In saying that I still have a lot to learn and grow into to. I'm fully expecting to drop a few more bottles of the coming years as I continue my training.
Back to the original thread. Good tale Stew. Mr F and myself found ourselves off the Royal Archer as well and I must say I was glad he was there! I wouldn't have been happy there on my own :eek:
There's been a good couple of threads lately with people being honest about being scared (no macho crap) which is good for anyone who's nervous as they can see their not alone.
dive granny
22-03-08, 21:12
I totally agree with Jonny B about the 'don't panic'. The time I went adrift at Bass Rock I was joined to my buddy with a John line which he then removed:eek: He told me to fin towards the Rock. I tried but I thought what is the point as it will just exhaust us and it was too dam far away 3/4 miles! He told me to dump my weight belt, which I reluctantly did:( Luckily it was a flat calm beautiful sunny day. I thought if I panic I will die, so I just put air in my stabby and suit and lay back. I tried to imagine I was lying on the beach sunbathing and watched the puffins and gulls flying about overhead. I kept thinking one would sooner or later poo on my mask:( Periodically I would look round and see the Rock getting further and further away:eek: Still tried to stay cool so i could breath easily and slowly. My buddy was finning away from me a fair bit and I got upset. I begged him not to leave me, and got a bit weepy. It seemed like hours but after 45 mins our rhib finally spotted us and came to the rescue. I just burst into tears when they told us they were about 5 mins from calling the coastguard. We got back to the shore an both had a shot of 02. My buddy told me he thought I hadn't realised how serious a situation we were in. Believe me I did:eek:
I too have a story, Sound Of Mull with Loudy
dive granny
22-03-08, 21:16
There's been a good couple of threads lately with people being honest about being scared (no macho crap) which is good for anyone who's nervous as they can see their not alone.
I very much agree with that. I always imagined all you guys were very macho, not scared of anything kind of guys. It actually makes me feel a bit more confident reading these tales. If that makes sense:)
You are also very kind and helpful and there is lots of good advice on here.:-)
I very much agree with that. I always imagined all you guys were very macho, not scared of anything kind of guys. It actually makes me feel a bit more confident reading these tales. If that makes sense:)
You are also very kind and helpful and there is lots of good advice on here.:-)
if i had £1 for every time i have had a fright under water, i could buy a new xstream reg..;)
I too have a story, Sound Of Mull with Loudy
do tell in your own time should you wish.
nice laxative stories!
I think you might have been lucky that day, Stew :eek:
can't believe you lied in the rhib, ye twat :D;) ... you should have gone on O2!!
This is great , love the honesty !
Clappin my hands , seriously :O)
nice laxative stories!
I think you might have been lucky that day, Stew :eek:
can't believe you lied in the rhib, ye twat :D;) ... you should have gone on O2!!
aye... very much so...o2 would have been the obvious 1st line of defence after that. denial is a very common side effect when you make an ar5e of yourself and is commonly associated whith uncontrolled/rapid ascents and DCI.
if i thought someone else had did the same i'd kick their ar5se if they did what i did.
if anyone learns from this then its a bonus.
i have a few 'laxative stories' (including one i will never print ;)) ..... but i need more wine first.. :D
i have a few 'laxative stories' (including one i will never print ;)) ..... but i need more wine first.. :D
Oh you teaser.
Have more wine , print , PRINT....... PRINT !!!!
Yogi Diver
22-03-08, 21:52
I very much agree with that. I always imagined all you guys were very macho, not scared of anything kind of guys. It actually makes me feel a bit more confident reading these tales. If that makes sense:)
The big trouble with all this honesty is it lets the Novices see us, so called, "experienced" guys, for the Twats we really are!:p
I'll write down all my mistakes one day but you'll all need to invest in more powerful computers to download that much crap in one go.:o
Weird thing is, I got away with all those cock-ups that should have sent me straight to the chamber and then got bent doing a textbook dive??:confused:
This is what I like about this forum. No bull sh1t. I find one stroll through YD and you can't get the smell of it out your nostrils for days.
The drink talking
"I luuuuuve you guys" :D
Oh you teaser.
Have more wine , print , PRINT....... PRINT !!!!
next week perhaps... another story about Eyemouth (pm me next week to remind me), but there is one i will never print as per above, seriously, i never will print it no matter how much wine i have had. its not my story to tell.
might tell you about it one day though if i meet you.;)
The big trouble with all this honesty is it lets the Novices see us, so called, "experienced" guys, for the Twats we really are!
something to aspire too then..:D
This is what I like about this forum. No bull sh1t. I find one stroll through YD and you can't get the smell of it out your nostrils for days.
The drink talking
"I luuuuuve you guys" :D
Hear hear imagine saying you were scared on YD,all the "experts" would tell you to take up carpet bowls :(
The big trouble with all this honesty is it lets the Novices see us, so called, "experienced" guys, for the Twats we really are!:p
I'll write down all my mistakes one day but you'll all need to invest in more powerful computers to download that much crap in one go.:o
Weird thing is, I got away with all those cock-ups that should have sent me straight to the chamber and then got bent doing a textbook dive??:confused:
Yip , but knowledge is the key.
The more we ( well I certainly ) learn from other peoples experiences , the better prepared we are for them in the future.
I reckon 'experienced' is just shorthand for 'experienced more than his/her fair share of blundering near misses'; it is in my case anyway.
The only reason I dive is because underwater is probably the only place in the world where I won't set fire to myself or something else.
I well remember swimming away down the furrow from a missed shot 'on' the Royal Archer thinking to myself, I HTF those lazy buggers up top realise they're adrift. They didn't:(
Hear hear imagine saying you were scared on YD,all the "experts" would tell you to take up carpet bowls :(
now that could be quite entertaining.;).. submit post and link it back here..:D
who is up for it?..loudy?
The only reason I dive is because underwater is probably the only place in the world where I won't set fire to myself or something else.
:(
LOL
Must introduce you to Lithium :O)
I very much agree with that. I always imagined all you guys were very macho, not scared of anything kind of guys. It actually makes me feel a bit more confident reading these tales. If that makes sense:)...
To paraphrase slightly "If you're never scared then you don't understand the situation", although with experience and training scared can be turned into "nervous but focussed"!
Best advice I had for when things go wrong (as they will!) was "Stop, identify the problem, if there is more than one then identify the biggest one, sort that, if you can't sort it then decide the next best action and fix that. Don't panic, panic kills... just stop, think, and start finding solutions as calmly as you can"
Goes along with one all the RB divers will recognise, "if in doubt, bail out" which we modified slightly to "if you think somethings going wrong or you're not 100% happy about it then get the f**k out of it!" ;)
As someone said on another thread, the sea will still be there tomorrow...
dive granny
22-03-08, 22:39
Cheers. I am getting better at applying my 'land skills' to underwater. I'm not a panicky person normally, probably to do with being ex nurse/mum /granny. my few experiences 'under water have made me better at 'chilling out' and relaxing till I can, as you say, sort the problem. I do tend to say to myself "it's a loing way up if you panic you will die, so calm down and chill".
Best advice I had for when things go wrong (as they will!) was "Stop, identify the problem, if there is more than one then identify the biggest one, sort that, if you can't sort it then decide the next best action and fix that. Don't panic, panic kills... just stop, think, and start finding solutions as calmly as you can"
PADI open water manual "stop breathe think" best advice ever
now that could be quite entertaining.;).. submit post and link it back here..:D
who is up for it?..loudy?
You do it! i'm sure all the quarry diving experts will guide you ;)
LOL
Must introduce you to Lithium :O)
Oh, my doctor introduced me to that years ago!;)
Hear hear imagine saying you were scared on YD,all the "experts" would tell you to take up carpet bowls :(
Check and see if our friend Paul posted there.
Keeping my gob shut.........:O)
You do it! i'm sure all the quarry diving experts will guide you ;)
i cant... i post in the commie section, any potential employers would have a hairy fit and i'd be out on the streets chapping your door for food..:D
i cant... i post in the commie section, any potential employers would have a hairy fit and i'd be out on the streets chapping your door for food..:D
I have plenty food , go for it :O)
I have plenty food , go for it :O)
GIRUY :D
i cant... i post in the commie section, any potential employers would have a hairy fit and i'd be out on the streets chapping your door for food..:D
Go on commie boy ;)
See, this is what I have been missing...
Honest to goodness.
Stewart I have not heard that tale so eloquenty put.
Nice one.
See, this is what I have been missing...
Honest to goodness.
Stewart I have not heard that tale so eloquenty put.
Nice one.
you probably remember it first time around Fran...;) along with dereks ping-pong ball joke.. :rolleyes:
Check and see if our friend Paul posted there.
Keeping my gob shut.........:O)
Go on... spill the beans and post the link :D
I could only find the one where they told him to put just enough in his suit to stop the squeeze and then use his jacket for buoyancy because using the drysuit for buoyancy is confusing and using only one item for buoyancy is less confusing... confused? :confused:
:rolleyes:
Thanks very much to you all for posting your incident pit dives - i think pretty much every diver can relate to most scenarios in one way or another. my opinion its pretty much a numbers game, the more diving u do, the more chance u have of encountering a not very good dive.
As for looking like twats - no not at all - your able to be modest and honest enough about what went wrong as opposed to an arrogant 'i know everything' approach which often happens in a pub environment of tall stories that scare all the newbies half to death.
Here's to a good & safe 2008
I inflate my suit and start to fin up,
First ever free ascent , bit of air in the jacket , hand on the dump , eyes glued on the computer
On the learning something front, am I missing something here? No doubt Tonto, I hear you shout.
When I learned to dive I was taught to empty the bc before ascending.
With a drysuit I use the bc for bouyancy at the surface, but dump all the air during the dive. Before ascending I still, out of habit, empty the bc before ascending, despite there being no air in it. I don't specifically dump air from the suit before ascending - not wishing to be celephaned to death at depth - but have it set comfortably before going up and check the air is dumping before and as I go up.
Is there another way - why add air to the suit or jacket before going up when that's almost exactly the opposite of what I'd do?
based on diving if wearing a drysuit & BCD...
<30m....
if your 'sport diving' its a good idea to dump air from your bcd even if you didnt put any in it, sometimes the valve by-passes and slowly fills without you knowing it. buddy crack bottles being another common cause and so got the name 'suicide bottles' but thats another story...
sport divers are taught to have air in their suit when diving as if they had air in the suit and bcd they would be task loading.
in less than 30m of water, air in your suit is enough to support you generally but its a pain when you loose air from the neck dam or it build up along your shoulders and neck due to diving in a fin down position like most 'newbies' and BCD wearers.
if your neutral then you really dont have to add any air, Boyles law will do the work, but if your a 'newbie' diver then you probably blast more air in and out of your suit than you breathe during the dive & we all did that im sure..
based on diving if wearing a drysuit & wing...
>30m.... 'non-sport diving' ?
air in wing and suit, suit for comfort, take the squeeze off & use the wing for support, even more so if you have 'cargo'.
hard pushed to have a suit support you at depth and far less reliable when a glug of air spouts out the neck dam, its amazing how quick you sink at depth!
dump all the air you need to from the wing on the way up, then air from the suit if required (again, depends on your cargo weight).
or thats how i do it anyway, pretty sure JohnnyB will be along to explain his actions shortly.
if your 'sport diving' its a good idea to dump air from your bcd even if you didnt put any in it, sometimes the valve by-passes and slowly fills without you knowing it
Yep, that's what I do too
hard pushed to have a suit support you at depth
Okay, not really been at that depth, but makes sense.
But I'm still missing something, was there a reason you added air to the suit before the ascent? I understand why you did it later when going up wasn't working as a last ditch measure, but why did you add air at the bottom before going up. Should I be doing it / considering it and if so why?
Maybe I'm just missing the point and not reading everything. If so, I'll just sit here in my little cocoon of ignorance - it's nice in here, I have it decorated the way I like it.....I get to spend alot of time here....... with no friends......maybe I should sleep more at night......:o
Hi guys.
You ask why I put some air in my stab when I started my ascent ?
I'm kind of surprised that you have to ask , the answer is so obvious.
Cos , I'm new at it and don't know what the heck I'm doing yet :O)
In fairness to myself , I do mean , a little air , a VERY little air.
Just enough to start you heading up , then dump it bit by bit from the suit , trying to keep 4 bars on the computer.
Free ascents is something I still find very very difficult , especially in near zero vis as we so often have.
I was going to start a new thread on it when I got back from hols asking for hints and tips , so probably stick with that plan as I will be 'off the air' after this afternoon.
Is that the sound of Champagne corks I hear ??
I don't do it any more , it was my first attempt remember , I just fin up gently and let nature take its course.
DSMB's seem to be quite a good 'cheat' as well !
Gives me the oportunity to 'wind myself up' instead of winding everyone else up.
Another little confession , I usually keep a tiny bit of air in my stab rather than in my suit ( naughty , naughty ) the reason being that I know , 100% certainty that I can dump it very quickly if I have to.
Probably a throw-back to training in a club suit which was a size or 2 too big for me with a cuff dump which was EXCRUTIATINGLY slow to release the thousands of liters of air I had sloshing around in it.
Nothing more frustrating than going a little bit positively buoyant , dumping as fast as you can , and yet STILL find yourself heading up. Resorted to pulling the neck seal on one occasion. Works well that does.
Its a bad habit I intend to grow out of.
I sincerely promise not to do it on my next 6 dives.
He he - empty promise :O)
Cheers JB.
Yogi Diver
26-03-08, 09:50
I'm going to commit heresy now.:p
SAA train novices to use their stabs for buoyancy control and only put enough in the suit to counter the squeeze.
Yes, it does add to the task loading but, as Novices are invariably over weighted, it allows enough air to counter the lead without it all escaping from the neck seal. As has been pointed out in a previous post, novices are invariably in a fins down position so the air in their suits is relying on a nice tight seal. It also means they don't have to learn new skills when diving in warmer climes without a drysuit.
I have trained novices this way and always advise them to experiment with different techniques as they progress and become more confident. Usually they find that they manage to dive with less lead eventually and possibly ditch the ankle weights which I have always encouraged to begin with. (Fins down is better than inverted with boots full of air and heading for the surface.) Their diving style therefore evolves naturally and most are comfortable with both methods of buoyancy control by the time they become Club Divers. Often, one or the other will add air faster and can therefore be used to arrest a rapid descent before it becomes a problem.
Hold on while we get our burning crosses , be with you in a minute :O)
Can't argue with any of that myself !
Don't personally agree with the notion of 'task -loading ' regarding having air in your stab and your suit , dumping air out my stab is second nature to me but thats probably due to thousands of hours of ars*ing around in the swimming pool , so can't speak for anyone else.
As someone who first learned to dive in blue water with a wet suit I too prefered the wing for buoyancy and suit for comfort approach. I was also taught this was once I started my uk diving.
However I have noticed as I've got on a bit that once you have your weight sorted I find less and less need for putting air in the wing.
Usually at the start of a dive with my 7's I'll have a bit in to counter the extra weight then use my suit. With my 12's (which I'm still getting used to and still need to work on the weight) I find I need a bit more air than usual in the wing to stop me face planting.
I don't have enough faith in an autodump to rely on it completely. As Johnny says I know the wing will dump air more than quickly enough if need be.
Im a bit confused.
Surely no matter the device the principles and physics are the same.
I add air to whatever device I am using to control Buoyancy on the way down (Gos compresses) and on the way up I let air out (Gas Expands).
Trained not to use the inflater as an elevator button....
Hi guys.
You ask why I put some air in my stab when I started my ascent ?
I'm kind of surprised that you have to ask , the answer is so obvious.
Cos , I'm new at it and don't know what the heck I'm doing yet :O)
:D
I'm going to commit heresy now.:p
To be honest, that's why I asked the question. I was taught to dump "all" (or at least as much as would come out the bc) before starting the ascent. I can understanding adding a bit will help you start your journey up. That's fine as long as you then get rid of it before you make like a missile.
Is it easier, is it safer, is it way more dangerous?
If it's just to get a little extra lift, I can sympathise - we've all had (well, okay, I;ve had) those dives where to start for the surface and 2 minutes later you've only gone about 2 metres up. On the other hand it's never been such a problem I've felt like I needed another solution.
It's a bit like the suspension mountain bike. I merrily spent 4 years riding me non suspension mountain bike, ignoring the revolution going on around me, thinking, look at those jessies on thier full suspension bikes riding - what sort of girlie sport do they think this is. Then some b&*£$%d, err sorry, one of my friends, let me have a go on his new bike. One short cycle uphill and I was £800 worse off, with my own full suspension bike. If I had never had that shot I'd still be on the old bike yet!
Maybe I'll try it, not sure tho' ? - I'll report back on the web that night - unless it all goes horribly wrong and I'll report back once I'm discharged!
Yogi Diver
26-03-08, 11:17
Trained not to use the inflater as an elevator button....
That's the bottom line regardless of whether it's your suit or BCD. You should be neutrally buoyant on your dive and a slightly larger breath, plus a fin kick or two should start your ascent. After that you need to release air, not add it. Learn to release slowly so you are not continually dumping too much and having to add more back in. It takes a bit of practice but feels soooo good when you master it.:)
I wouldn't dump all my air out of anywhere before starting the ascent. That'll just make you negative and you'll need to add it back elsewhere.
Neither system is wrong to use. If it works for you, good luck. If it doesn't try something else before you screw yourself!
Eeekk....
Don't copy my bad habits !!
I'm the one that ( was ) doing it wrong .
Was considering having a training session of just practicing ascents from say about 15 - 20m , but I am fairly sure that would be a very bad idea from a DCI point of view - pity :O(
Yogi Diver
26-03-08, 12:22
Was considering having a training session of just practicing ascents from say about 15 - 20m , but I am fairly sure that would be a very bad idea from a DCI point of view - pity :O(
Not too bad an idea if you do it before the start of a first dive and make sure you have a nice easy, conservative dive profile planned. (Don't go Yo Yo ing and then try a 50 metre, Deco dive!)
If you lose it and go up too fast, there will be very little nitrogen in your system so DCI should be unlikely. Burst Lung's still possible though if you forget to breath out. (Screaming Shiiiiiiiiittttttttt!!!!!!! does the same function:):D)
If you do lose it, take your time before going back down, or abort the first dive completely till you've had a bit of a Surface Interval. Never experiment at the end of your dive. If you lose it with your system at saturation point, you are going to the pot!:(
Glad Peter raised this one, I read with horror that people were adding air before ascents. My school of thought on this one (ignoring any training) is that you are doing your dive and are neutrally bouyant. Given that as you ascend air expands and if it expands quicker than you can release it you are invariably going to become an exorcet, depending on the depth you are diving at. Therefore releasing air then finning up gives you a bit of a head start on preventing runaway ascents, adding air only adds to this risk. Next time take a plastic bottle or balloon down with you, add a little air at depth then watch what happens! How do you think the delayed SMB works???
Also using an SMB to reel you in?????
Sorry not like me to get on a high horse but adding air at the start of ascent, to help, is wrong in my books and does the opposite of help. Even at depths deeper than recreational diving, into the realms of technical diving, you are already presumably still following the principles of diving neutrally bouyant so I dont see the difference, but I think I might be in the same cocoon as Peter, I dont like the decor though.
I only did it the once :O(
I was young and foolish , I know better now....!!
ALSO...... I did actually control my ascent OK ( no beep beep flashy flashy on the computer ) and held a 3 minute safety at 3m.
Sorry if I have given anyone the impression that my idea of free ascent is to hold the inflate button hard down , shout 'WooHoo' and see how far out the water I can get when I hit the surface.
Its not , truly it isn't !!
I've never exceeded 12m/min in my life and usually manage to hold it to about 8.
Wouldn't dream of practising ascents other than if I had not been diving for at least the previous 24hrs.
I would still be sceptical as to its safety. Granted the Nitrogen absorbtion would be much less than a normal dive , but the repeated descent- ascent cycle COULD precipitate accelerated micro-bubble formation and that would be a bad thing.
I don't know enough about it to be 100% sure it would be safe , so I won't do it.
Having Chicken Bhuna for lunch BTW - sweet :O)
Cheers , JB.
Yogi Diver
26-03-08, 13:29
I never meant to imply it was Ok to try it repeatedly before a dive. Just the one attempt. If God had meant us to be elevators he wouldn't have put our buttons in such silly places.:D
I never meant to imply it was Ok to try it repeatedly before a dive. Just the one attempt. If God had meant us to be elevators he wouldn't have put our buttons in such silly places.:D
Okay dokey :D
Once would be alright I guess , quick down then straight back up.
In a controlled manner of course - before you all start into me again :D;)
That's how I did my 'buddy breathing' and 'shared ascent' training.
Cheery.
Johnny I didnt imply anyone did this repeatedly, it was just that the uninformed or new diver reading some of the earlier posting might get the impression that inflating before starting the ascent was being trained :eek: I also got the impression that Stewart gave a sort of response to peter that didnt quite answer his question, I know Stewart is very experienced and being relatively novice compared to Stewart I would never dream of questioning his practices as we could be entering the what works for me doesnt work for you scenario or like you it was a one-off, very early on in your/his experience.
It is good to get this stuff and cleared as I believe the purpose of "the incident pit" is for others to learn from mistakes and errors in judgement.
I just had Mexican chicken, Jalepenos and chees panini and it was loverly!
I'm too busy today to habe an opinion. I just had some ham in a wrap - it was okay :o
i had fish and chips. old school. it was great.
but now i have indigestion :o
But I'm still missing something, was there a reason you added air to the suit before the ascent? I understand why you did it later when going up wasn't working as a last ditch measure, but why did you add air at the bottom before going up. Should I be doing it / considering it and if so why?
nothing majically technical about why i did it, the reason was ...
wait for it... drum roll....:D
i was negative when i lost the wreck...:) nothing more...
i was a newbie diver at the time, i was still learning to fly.
after that i was inverted and fighting against myself, hence the additional inflation.
& i had a 5 course :o meal at the new chineese resturant 'silk cottage' near cumbernauld. buffet all for £5.95....
origionally the little chef...
nothing majically technical about why i did it, the reason was ...
wait for it... drum roll....:D
i was negative when i lost the wreck...:) nothing more...
i was a newbie diver at the time, i was still learning to fly.
Thanks. It was just very noticeable in this thread that both you and Johnny said you inflated before going up. I simply wanted to know if it was nothing, something specific to the condition, or whether other training agencies used this as an ascent method, different from how I was taught.
I wasn't making an issue of it, I just wanted to know if there was something else I could or should be thinking about.
I am now thinking about dinner, 'cause I am going to have to make my own and the lunchtime wrap didn't go that far - where is my nearest little chef?
Thanks. It was just very noticeable in this thread that both you and Johnny said you inflated before going up. I simply wanted to know if it was nothing, something specific to the condition, or whether other training agencies used this as an ascent method, different from how I was taught.
I wasn't making an issue of it, I just wanted to know if there was something else I could or should be thinking about.
I am now thinking about dinner, 'cause I am going to have to make my own and the lunchtime wrap didn't go that far - where is my nearest little chef?
only time i would inflate a suit prior to ascending is a casualties suit (not mine), but thats heading down the road of rescue diving. or perhaps a big 'down currant' i couldnt get out of.
every chocolate biscuit in my house is safe tonight.....:D
I am finding this thread very interesting as I have never been trained in Drysuit diving. I did most of my diving in a wetsuit using the BCD for buoyancy control on ascent and I always swim up, releasing air as I go. When I had to start using a drysuit, I only used the suit to release the squeeze and use the BCD for buoyancy control. My drysuit has a very good auto dump so at the begining of my ascent I always turn it to full dump, add any air to my BCD to compensate and then ascend as I always have done. Have never had any problems with the suit becoming too bouyant - as it seems to look after itself, just dump air from my BCD as necessary. I have read so many accounts of people having uncontrolled ascents due to drysuits compared to BCD's that it just seems like a safer way to ascend esp as I am used to doing it that way. As I tend to spend alot of my diving time taking pictures in the "feet up" position, it seems better to have as little air in the drysuit as possible.
Tonights wine is a very nice margaret river one. Don't think I had any lunch, or dinner for that matter.
dive granny
26-03-08, 22:45
I'm sure that is why I had a rapid ascent on my first trip to red Sea. I had newstabby (not a good idea) and it was my first time wet suit diving.:eek:
Just to add a bit of perspective to this thread, and I don't condone this at all, but my Grandfather ( who started diving sometime in the 50s and had no training as there was none available) used to dive with no SPG and no depth gauge. He would regularly run out of air, ditch his weight belt and shoot to the surface, sometimes coming out of the water to his waist. :D Maybe he got bent and never realised it, maybe he didn't. Anyway my father and uncle refused to dive with him after a while and he hasn't dived since he was 70. He is now 91 and fairly compass (for a 91 year old) and is coming to visit us in July this year (from NZ). We are taking him to Scapa, hopefully he will be impressed with the way things have changed diving wise.
dive granny
26-03-08, 23:14
Good for him. I bet he is a character! Hopefully I'll still be globe trotting when I am that age:D
I have never been trained in Drysuit diving.
me neither...;)
. We are taking him to Scapa, hopefully he will be impressed with the way things have changed diving wise.
you making him use a spg & depth gauge this time?
i can imagine he has a few stories to tell.. fire them on CA if he wishes to share any with us.;)
missed this earlier...
it was just that the uninformed or new diver reading some of the earlier posting might get the impression that inflating before starting the ascent was being trained :eek:
well flagged up chris...
I also got the impression that Stewart gave a sort of response to peter that didnt quite answer his question,
dont think i read his question right first time around. but have responded since.
I know Stewart is very experienced and being relatively novice compared to Stewart I would never dream of questioning his practices as we could be entering the what works for me doesnt work for you scenario
all the more reason to ask perhaps? everything i do is for some reason or another whether right or wrong, i still learn from my mistakes.
thats me almost at 100 dives now...:eek:
& perhaps its not always wise to take free advice, after all its free for a reason..;):D:D
me neither...;)
you making him use a spg & depth gauge this time?
i can imagine he has a few stories to tell.. fire them on CA if he wishes to share any with us.;)
Thankfully he's just sight seeing and as for the stories - they usually start with "during the war......" but yes, he could provide some entertainment on CA
thats me almost at 100 dives now...:eek:
Typo :confused:
Yogi Diver
27-03-08, 09:22
Typo :confused:
Missed the decimal point?:p
Typo :confused:
100 this year maybe??
- they usually start with "during the war......" but yes, he could provide some entertainment on CA
is his surname 'Simpson'... :D
Typo :confused: hook
Missed the decimal point?:p line
100 this year maybe?? sinker
chris,
dont sell yourself short, im convinced your a very experienced diver yourself.
i said that to show that anyone could type anything on the internet and people can believe it..
truth....
5-10 dives a week and sometimes on my days off... i go diving.
dive numbers mean little to me these days, its more about dive time.
today i was in the water for over 2 hours, unsure of exact time, dont know what depth, longest dive to date is 3 hours without a break for the toilet in 6 degree water.
some days i can be in a suit for 8+ hours, snorkling, free diving and diving.
but at least im not sitting at a desk anymore.. :D
Yogi Diver
27-03-08, 22:44
Oh Gawddd! Who started this Multiquote thing?:rolleyes:
Oh Gawddd! Who started this Multiquote thing?:rolleyes:
been doing it for ages...:o sorry...
only now has the right tool been unleashed from the box for others to torque.
i sound like a mechanic.. dont i ?:D
but at least im not sitting at a desk anymore.. :D
Bet you miss it - :rolleyes:
dive granny
28-03-08, 00:21
Oh Gawddd! Who started this Multiquote thing?:rolleyes:
Er me sorry!
chris,
dont sell yourself short, im convinced your a very experienced diver yourself.
i said that to show that anyone could type anything on the internet and people can believe it..
truth....
5-10 dives a week and sometimes on my days off... i go diving.
dive numbers mean little to me these days, its more about dive time.
today i was in the water for over 2 hours, unsure of exact time, dont know what depth, longest dive to date is 3 hours without a break for the toilet in 6 degree water.
some days i can be in a suit for 8+ hours, snorkling, free diving and diving.
but at least im not sitting at a desk anymore.. :D
Cheers, I knew exactly what you were getting at and know exactly what you mean with regard to posting things and people believing them. I mean people actually think that George is Peter and Mildred is Chris, or is it the other way round, maybe its George Peter Mildred or Mildred Chris George... who knows, sh!t I am getting confused now.
Regards
Mildred
Cheers, I knew exactly what you were getting at and know exactly what you mean with regard to posting things and people believing them. I mean people actually think that George is Peter and Mildred is Chris, or is it the other way round, maybe its George Peter Mildred or Mildred Chris George... who knows, sh!t I am getting confused now.
Regards
Mildred
cant believe this thread has ran to 10 pages, must be at the end now.
perhaps a new story from Mildred will get us all going again. ;)
Cheers, I knew exactly what you were getting at and know exactly what you mean with regard to posting things and people believing them. I mean people actually think that George is Peter and Mildred is Chris, or is it the other way round, maybe its George Peter Mildred or Mildred Chris George... who knows, sh!t I am getting confused now.
Regards
Mildred
Now I'm confused... I always thought that Peter was Mildred! :p
Now I'm confused... I always thought that Peter was Mildred! :p
One things for sure, they don't wear speedos!
One things for sure, they don't wear speedos!
begs the question...
how do you know this?:eek:
begs the question...
how do you know this?:eek:
you told me
Now I'm confused... I always thought that Peter was Mildred! :p
I think so too, Mildred is more macho - although my hair is like Georges - naw, just checked a picture of G&M, it's not that good. :(
One things for sure, they don't wear speedos!
Dunno about Chris :confused:
Nah speedo's are old school, its the addidas tight shorts I wear :D
One thing I do know about G&M is that Mr Roper is the more camp one, with Mrs Roper being the more butch. Those that have met and dived with us should be able to work it out I am pretty sure. And have you seen the colours Peter wears???
Also just read that the actress that played Mildred ( Yootha Joyce ) drank a litre of brandy a day before her demise.
Also just read that the actress that played Mildred ( Yootha Joyce ) drank a litre of brandy a day before her demise.
That's how I feel now!