View Full Version : SSAC DiveLeader ?
Dive Tramp
13-11-07, 03:13
A point raised, I think in Claire's reply to JackM, (in SSAC BI Course) has prompted my return to the question I put to the NDC last year on two separate occassions, with, to date , no definitve reply. That question was/is...
There is a section in the SSAC Qualification book for the "grade " of Dive Leader(page 53 in edition 13), however , try as I might, I can find NO syllabus for the relevant training to attain this Grade.
I was told, in one answer (I didn't get an answer the second time I asked a few months later!), to ask my DO. I did and suffice to say, he hadn't a clue!
My question now is...Is this still the case? that there is still no definitive Dive Leader syllabus? If it is, and there is no DL syllabus, what use is there of having a Grade listed for which there is no course to complete?
I ought to add, that I am now with BSAC and have enjoyed following their qualification syllabii and am about to attain the Dive Leader Grade!
It has always annoyed me that one as well, especially as BSAC say a Diveleader is the equivalent of a PADI DM.
I have a ScotSAC Sports diver ticket and a PADI DM one however due to commitments and restrictions on time / mine and others, Ive never managed to get my Master Diver Ticket with ScotSAC.
Although I made the assumption that being ScotSAC this is a left over from the copying of information from BSAC.
Sport Diver Manual is the BSAC Manual.
Qualifications back in the 80's (possibly even in the 90's?, prior to dare I say it BSAC Modernisation) where aligned with BSAC and therefore I just assumed we (ScotSAC) have a copy of some old BSAC qualifications record.
Davie
My understanding is that the Dive Leader endorsement is simply part of the Master Diver training schedule rather than a stand-alone qualification.
see part 3 of http://www.scotsac.com/training/training_schedule_7.htm
It's one of the prerequisites for attending the BI course (see part 6 of http://www.scotsac.com/training/training_schedule_6.htm)
Charlie, in the handbook, qualification record, it says something about only needing to lead on two occasions if you already hold the dive leader endorsement.
I cant be bothered to go find it and quote it exactly.
Davie
Charlie, in the handbook, qualification record, it says something about only needing to lead on two occasions if you already hold the dive leader endorsement.
I cant be bothered to go find it and quote it exactly.
Davie
I dont know of a diveleader cert. As part of master diver you have to divelead on four ocasions (old books say 2) and lead a party of three other divers on two ocasions to the satisfaction of the Instructor, No 3 Master diver, This has been in SSAC over 20 years that I know off, and have paperwork for. SSAC have started using the BSAC book only a few years now, to save money getting a book made.
I have been told that there were quite a few modifications made to the BSAC manual before it's use by SSAC.
There was also a limit to the amount of change which could be made.
According to the SSAC NDC minutes a further review was underway, which identified a number of deficiencies, but due to lack of support appears to have collapsed in April/May 07.
The current manual certainly in needs of some updating.
I have been told that there were quite a few modifications made to the BSAC manual before it's use by SSAC.
There was also a limit to the amount of change which could be made.
According to the SSAC NDC minutes a further review was underway, which identified a number of deficiencies, but due to lack of support appears to have collapsed in April/May 07.
The current manual certainly in needs of some updating.
The NDC has been asked by the Board of Directors of SSAC to review the training schedule. Any changes have to be ratified at an AGM.
Dont have knowledge of any of the above but the SAA guidelines are below.
Introduction
To qualify as a Dive Leader, the DL candidate must first have achieved the SAA Club Diver
grade. The DL candidate must complete a further 15 qualifying dives following Club Diver
qualification, in a variety of conditions and with at least eight at sea.
DL candidates are limited to completing a maximum of two qualifying dives in a day, and with
no more than two qualifying dives at any dive site. The dive duration for qualifying dives
must not be less than 15 minutes with at least 8 of these dives deeper than 25 metres. The
maximum depth at any time is 50 metres.
To qualify as a Dive Leader, a DL candidate will be expected to log a further five hours
underwater post qualifying as a Club Diver. It may be necessary to have recorded more than
the 15 qualifying dives to achieve this underwater experience. It is advised that the
qualifying dives should include experience of at least 6 of the following:
1. Wreck dive.
2. Hard boat dive.
3. Night dive.
4. Dive with a work task.
5. Dive to 30 metres.
6. Stage-stop decompression dive.
7. Drift dive.
8. Zero visibility dive.
9. Cold water dive (below 5 oC).
10. Cliff (Wall) dive.
Other types of dives which indicate a range of diving experience are also acceptable.
It should be made clear to DL candidates that all dives should be written-up in their
logbook, but only dives approved by the Club DO may be logged in their training record as
qualifying dives.
During the qualifying and assessment dives, candidates should demonstrate an appropriate
level of competence in such things as:
1. Questioning of divers, inspection of their log books and testing to determine divers’
ability/experience.
2. Selection of suitable sites and tidal conditions, arrangement of dives (within the
overall plan of meeting) to meet the needs of Novice and Club Divers.
3. Briefing divers, supervising kitting-up and buddy checks.
4. Getting divers into the water, supervising in-water checks.
5. Leading dives, applying correct monitoring, control and safety practices.
6. Rope search.
7. Navigation by "dead reckoning", pilotage and use of a compass.
8. Assisted ascent/emergency ascent.
9. Conducting debriefings, submission of dive record sheets.
10. Use of Decompression Tables to correctly determine stops for any given dive.
11. Air requirement calculations.
12. Familiarity with the use of PDC’s
13. Basic First Aid, including Oxygen provision.
These must be carried out over a number of dives.
DLS4 – Skills
The DL candidate will demonstrate the following skills in open water to the satisfaction of
the Club DO:
a. Plan and execute a 35 metre dive.
b. Act as a Dive Leader on four occasions.
c. Plan, prepare and carry out a Stage-Stop dive.
d. Plan and execute a rope search.
e. Carry out an assisted ascent from 10 to 3 metres
f. Demonstrate ability to recover an unconscious diver from 20 metres to 10 metres
using a buoyant lift.
g. Plot a navigation course taking into account a tidal stream.
DLS4.1 - Examination
The DL candidate will sit a written examination based upon the information contained in the
Dive Leader Lectures DLL1 to DLL7. The pass mark is 80%.
The Exam was the most stressful for me. MadMajor
I dont know of a diveleader cert. As part of master diver you have to divelead on four ocasions (old books say 2) and lead a party of three other divers on two occasions to the satisfaction of the Instructor, No 3 Master diver, This has been in SSAC over 20 years that I know off, and have paperwork for. SSAC have started using the BSAC book only a few years now, to save money getting a book made.
OK here is the section in my qualification record .........
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2140/2049558065_9a368080c5_o.jpg
My Qualification record is Issue Feb/2005
The Section Recommended awards & Endorsements starting on page 49 has a a section on page 53 that says.
Dive Leader:
This is to certify that.............................................. ................. has successfully completed a SSAC recognised Course on the above
Course: Location: Date: Instructor & Number:
If we SSAC Took BSAC into account then Id be able to have that section signed off as I have a PADI DM...
See the BSAC SALT Table: BSAC Equivalent Qualifications (http://www.bsac.org/uploads/documents/SALT_Feb_07.pdf)
Actually by all means BSAC say that a PADI DM is a Dive Leader and they also say that a SSAC Divemaster is a diveleader.
It would be good to have some cross over or recognition from other diving agencies.
I also have a TDI Nitrox cert but Can Anybody sign my BASIC Nitrox endorsement as its an equivalent?
What If I do Advanced Nitrox & Deco Procedures Surely that could get signed off? no because SSAC have no cross over guidance that I have seen.
I wrote a letter to head office around 13-16 months ago and was told it would go to the NDC but never heard anything about that either.
If I don't have Basic Ntirox certified does that mean I cant dive it on SSAC Club dives even though I have the qualification by another agency?
Bah, Humbug, Can, Worms, Open......
Davie
SAA Cross overs.
SAA
BSAC
PADI
Dive Leader
Dive Leader
Dive Master
Madmajor
I dont have the dive leader endorsement in my book
http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j62/johnnicolson/Finstrokes/masterdiver.jpg
Dive Tramp
20-11-07, 22:03
Ah, you've really got to keep up with the times Ding...:rolleyes: My Qual. book is the 13th (hahahaha) edition! :eek: Oh, and its on page 53.
is there a treasure map anywhere in that book Ding?:D
-----------
looking at the BSAC salt tables, i noticed that a closed bell saturation diver can cross over to being a sport diver..
that must be a little slap in the face for them im sure...:rolleyes:
-----------
being able to cross over and have qualifications recognised has to be a step forward.
Scotsac Crossovers (http://www.scotsac.com/training/crossovers.htm)
BSAC Technical Crossovers (http://www.bsac.org/page/827/recognised-oc-training.htm#top)
http://www.bsac.org/page/471/alternative-skills.htm
My book is older than that :D :D
So if everyodys book is different , older (more mature)....
Then Anybody have any Idea what the actual stance is ........
OK So:
Master Diver Crossover
PART 1: Diving Grades up to Master Diver
Experienced divers joining the SSAC from other Clubs may apply to have their new SSAC Training Schedules cross certified. This will involve a detailed examination of their current or previous Training Schedule and diving log by the Branch Diving Officer. If doubts exists at any level it is the BDO's prerogative to carry out a practical assessment of any aspect of the diver's earlier training or any part he/she is not satisfied with. It is usual for the BDO to involve the Regional Coach in this exercise as the cross certification has to be ratified. Training carried out under another organisation will be indicated on SSAC certificates.
Is there guidance available on what should cross over or what else needs done?
Endorsements
PART 3: Endorsements
As for diving grades (Part 1) except the assessment may be made by a SS-AC Instructor of RI Grade, or higher, who holds the endorsement?
Note The question mark on the Endorsements section, regarding whol holds...
Any Idea if the BSAC Guide for technical crossovers would be applicable to the ScotSac Endorsements (probably not but its a good starting point)
I Originally learned with Scotsac and although am not doing much just now (due to work commitments) I fully intend to get back into the Branch and start diving, hopefully doing the BI Course to start giving back to the club, although What happens happens on Club Dives if I dive Nitrox on my TDI Cert (upto EAN40), According to Scotsac I am a sport diver, (30 Metres on Air) although I have a 40 Metre cert (PADI Deep) and a PADI DM Qualification which BSAC Says crosses over to Dive Leader which BSACAlso says a Scotsac Master Diver crosses over at the same level.
The Scotsac Approach seems a bit cloak and dagger, hidden from the members.
Dont get me wrong I am not trying to agency bash, I am just trying to sort out a large greay area that should help other people too. Lots of folk have certs from technical agencies and recreational agencies these days, it would be good to be able to use these towards furthering ones diving within the Branch.
Davie
looks to me that the onaas is on Scotsac to clarify the situation.
BSAC Dive Leader == PADI Divemaster == Scotsac Master Diver
Although I do believe Scotsac could do a bit more beyond Sports Diver, like look at why a large number of their divers do a Padi Deep and Nitrox, and TDI courses.
Lizardland
22-11-07, 15:31
Although I do believe Scotsac could do a bit more beyond Sports Diver, like look at why a large number of their divers do a Padi Deep and Nitrox, and TDI courses.
Same reason as divers choose other agencies over the club system. You get the training when you want it and in a reasonable amount of time. With higher level courses it also gives you a lot more flexibility in which instructor you choose. It's maybe not so important with a basic nitrox course (which I still don't understand why there needs to be a course rather than self-study, an exam and maybe 10min to show someone how to use an analyser) but as dive depth/time becomes more committing a lot of people want to choose who their instructor is.
Cheers,
Stuart
Although I do believe Scotsac could do a bit more beyond Sports Diver, like look at why a large number of their divers do a Padi Deep and Nitrox, and TDI courses.
they do, they offer the 'deep diving award (http://www.scotsac.com/training/deep_diving.htm)' which limits you to 50m on air.
one of the prerequisites is the 'deep rescue (http://www.scotsac.com/training/deep_rescue.htm)' course.
i have been invited on the deep diving course, but since ssac don't run any 'deep rescue' courses, i could not attend. :confused:
it's still a club funded voluntary organisation so you can't knock it.
take & learn what you can from it & if it's not enough, learn from another source.
ATB
stewart, the SSAC, PADI, TDI, HSE mongeral...;)
thats about the most sensible reply i,ve ever read regarding the agency thing . and no i,m not sucking up
Dive Tramp
23-11-07, 00:56
Thanks guys and gals, for your comments, and I can see this is not wrapped up and put to bed by any stretch of the imagination. However, has anyone noticed that the Deep Rescue Course requires you to have been a member of SSAC for at least two years before embarking on the course? I have to ask, why this is?
And also, thanks Stew, the Deep Diver Award requires you to hold the Dive Leader endorsement (or other bits of the MD qual), hmm?, before taking the course...
And apparently, the use of Nitrox to 50m is acceptable to SSAC for the whole dive? Perhaps I misunderstood the part of the course(Nitrox) that mentions O2 Toxicity at depth. Maybe I'm being pedantic, but come on guys, I know Air is a Nitrox "mix" but usually we refer to gases as Nitrox on mixes over 21% O2 which will be toxic at these depths...
I'm not bashing SSAC but I do find, and am finding, that there is a long way to go regarding regulating of standards to be achieved for qualification/assessments. There does (IMO) need to be more work done on "crossover" acceptances, but this can only happen if standards are realistically "normalised" so other agencies can see and be aware of the standards and requirements that are employed by SSAC. At present , not even your own members can find this info...
SSAC does seem to be a tad supercilious in asking to examine the training methods and course content of "outside " agencies. Blimey, I know BSAC's course content and info is readily available to one and all, I can't speak for SAA or PADI...
I did note that the Deep Diving course mentioned in Stew's post was due to be run in Aug 06 and this page had been updated in Sept 07, does this mean that there was no Deep Course this year? If not, could the reason be all the hoops you have to go thro to get on the course, or is everyone quite happy to dive to 30m (35m BSAC) or do they take up outside agencies courses that have fewer entry requirements? Make the courses accessible and more people will attend them...
The BSAC Dive Leader qualification allows DL's to dive, on air, to 50m!
it's not worth spending the extra for a 24% mix for a 50m dive i guess... but this opening statement from the deep diving course is a little on the questionable side.
from SSAC.
This course teaches the use of Air and Air Decompression Tables for dives to a maximum depth of 50m. Whilst the use of Nitrox as a gas for the whole dive or a decompression gas is acceptable by suitably qualified divers the award does not cover accelerated decompression using nitrox mixes of a high oxygen partial pressure as a decompression gas.
question 1.
how can a nitrox mix be used as a decompression gas if its not accelerating decompression.
question 2.
how can a nitrox mix be used at a high PPO2 for decompression other than traveling through the 1.6 area should you wish to start it there?
DT,
i believe the 06 course was the one i was invited to attend, i have no idea if the 07 course took place or not.
Lizardland
23-11-07, 01:45
Maybe I'm being pedantic, but come on guys, I know Air is a Nitrox "mix" but usually we refer to gases as Nitrox on mixes over 21% O2 which will be toxic at these depths...
The danger of air at 50m is nothing to do with it's oxygen content. The biggest risk is still it's nitrogen content. The tech agencies are all shying away from 50m air courses and the sooner clubs stop telling people it's alright then the better. Tolerance and not being narc'd are two totally different things. Tolerance is just having enough experience to ignore narcosis.
Encouraging nitrox at that depth is asking for an accident too. There isn't an analyser in a shop or diver's kit box with better accuracy than +/- 1%. When you start getting into very low mixes the opportunity for analyser and mixing error becomes massive. All it takes is 1% error on the analyser or a weak cell to make the difference between a gas that is safe and a gas that isn't.
question 1.
how can a nitrox mix be used as a decompression gas if its not accelerating decompression.
I presume it means that you can use nitrox for deco but you can't compensate the tables for it's use. If you use it then you stick to air deco tables even though your breathing a rich mix.
question 2.
how can a nitrox mix be used at a high PPO2 for decompression other than traveling through the 1.6 area should you wish to start it there?
I think it's just bad wording, high fO2 would have made more sense. Failing that then it depends on your definition of high PO2.