View Full Version : BCD or Wing
hey all
its been a while since ive been on here looks like your all still mad as ever. :D
im just getting back into diving from a few years off (7 to be exact.:eek:)
i decided to take a padi ow course with aquatron in glasgow which i started the other week. so far its been good, great bunch of guys.
am looking invest in some kit but ive been thinking of getting a wing instead of a bcd as im leaning towards the dark side and looking to take the tech route in diving as im concidering a career as a navy diver. and i was hoping you guys could help me out. im looking for advice on something thats future proof and can do me for my AOW and non tech courses but can be adapted when i go for twins, and some advanced courses. so what do you think would be better a BCD or Wing?
cheers
sandman
That fact that you're considering going techie then you definately want a wing. The Frog donut wings seem to be getting good reviews these days. Or the Dive Rite Classic Wing (I don't have either)
http://www.divingniknaks.com/frog_scuba_wings_backplates.php
And go for twins straight away. Slightly higher initial expense but you'll save a fortune in the long run. Twin 7L 300bar tanks are popular and not too heavy. (I do have them). Twin 10's are apparently a bit too short and can be sore on your back (unless your vertically challanged yourself), twin 12's might be a bit much if your just start out again but very easy to upgrade to if your using 7s (don't sell your 7s to help finance the 12 by the way ;) )
For regulators, Apeks have shown to be a favourite. Go for the lower models TX40 or 50 (XTX40 or 50's is the latest facelift model) The higher up models don't justify the extra cost (e.g. ATX/XTX200 I have them, not worth the extra). And get 300 bar DIN fitting, they will fit all tanks, even A Clamp with a £15ish adaptor.
Apart from that the rest is up to you.
There has been a few thread recently on these subjects. This is really a summary of them (as you can see not just a list of what I use)
For further reading the threads are:
http://www.congeralley.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1682
http://www.congeralley.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1586
http://www.congeralley.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1569
Lizardland
20-09-07, 15:27
Backplate and wing is the best way of not buying the same kit twice. It will work for singles and twinsets and you can even bolt a rebreather on to it. I know people will disagree but there is a limit to how your kit can progress with a stab.
Or the Dive Rite Classic Wing (I don't have either
I use the Classic wing, nice bit of kit and cheap too.
Scuba-Doh!
20-09-07, 16:03
I agree, go for a wing and backplate, don't be tempted by the midground, a wing with integrated harness but no backplate. I've the Custom Diver's Sport Wing (the TBK) which is exactly that and I wish I hadn't bought it. Granted it does the job for twin 10s but I'd be more comfortable with a backplate. Will be flogging it on fleabay as soon as finances allow me to look for a proper wing/bp/harness.
ive been thinking of getting a wing instead of a bcd as im leaning towards the dark side and looking to take the tech route in diving as im concidering a career as a navy diver.
= wing :)
I didnt think you could go straight in as a diver, I know in my day they had to be seaman then cross over to CD.
i dont think you can go in direct as a navy diver either.
you go visit for the weekend where they run you ragged for 2 days solid doing swin tests in/out your dry suit.
if your not scunnered by that, you will start your fitness basic training.
then you have to do a bit before becoming a diver.
this info is from a navy diver i know who retired last year.
any training you do prior wont count other than experience.
and back on topic... has to be a wing
wow a didnt think id get so many responses so soon. thanks guys:)
i think ill be going for a wing then lol
i seen a few that look pretty good. there was one that deep blue dive are doing as part of a package deal its a icaro tech by seac sub with a scubapro mk25 regs.
http://www.deepbluedive.com/product.aspx?id=11515
any1 know if there any good?
saying that i wouldnt mind getting some oms gear :p but cant find anywere to check prices and such.
as regards to the navy career i was looking through a load of stuff a got from the navy and u can go in direct - you first do a 10 day aptatude test to see if you can handle it. after passing, u do your 8 week basic training then your career training as a diver which lasts 6 months. although they do train you from scratch it gives you a better chance of selection if you already do most of the types of diving they carry out.
its one of the most versitile jobs you can do i think - one day fixing ship hulls, the next doing beach recon then the day after blowing up some old ww2 mines.:D wot would be a better days work.
anyways thanks for the feedback
im away to count my pennys :D
cheers
kyle
It's got to be a wing BUT I wouldn't go for that package if the pennies are tight. It's overpriced and has adjusters, clips etc that aren't needed and will just be a nuisance if they break.
Try Niknaks
http://www.divingniknaks.com/
You could get a single tank wing for 135 and a complete harness for 45.
Go dive will sell you an ali backplate for 40
http://godive.net/gdbcds.htm
So 220 for the BPW and even if you still go to Deep Blue for the reg package;
http://www.deepbluedive.com/product.aspx?id=14003
and upgrade to the same Suunto 3 guage console Thats 255, making the total 475 for the package instead of 839.
Personally, I'd save even more money by not going for a console at all, a contents guage is all that's needed with your other guages wrist mounted.
Good luck with the RN diver thing, a young friend of mine did the same and went in as a seaman before transferring to diving. He told me that confessing to any diving experience beforehand (as he had and did) made diving school even worse! So keep mum!
HTH
PS I'm sorry I've just noticed that it's a different 1st stage on that package a Mk11 instead of a Mk25 but just how much better is a Mk25 going to be?
PPS don't forget to get a din fitting on your reg.
Lizardland
21-09-07, 10:30
It's also got bungee all over the wing, really bad idea.
Get a problem with the wing or dump valve and it won't hold air as the bungee will squeeze eevrything out the wing. It makes oral inflating harder, it's really nice for catching on bits of wreck. Also looks horrendously oversized.
Cheers,
Stuart
All this talk of non-bungee'd wings, backplates and harnesses, single spg and no consoles its all very DIR :p
Lizardland
21-09-07, 14:32
All this talk of non-bungee'd wings, backplates and harnesses, single spg and no consoles its all very DIR :p
I would be if it wasn't for the bog pipe stuffed with floor cleaner instead of a twinset :)
As I've always said, you can't get a better way of diving OC. Someone else has done the fannying around with kit to save you the expense and the effort. It works straight out the box for 99% of people and is a lot more logical than some systems out there.
Cheers,
Stuart
I would be if it wasn't for the bog pipe stuffed with floor cleaner instead of a twinset :)
As I've always said, you can't get a better way of diving OC. Someone else has done the fannying around with kit to save you the expense and the effort. It works straight out the box for 99% of people and is a lot more logical than some systems out there.
Cheers,
Stuart
Which one have you got?
All this talk of non-bungee'd wings, backplates and harnesses, single spg and no consoles its all very DIR :p
I prefer to think of it as simply a hog rig, I'm not nearly good enough, slim enough or clever enough to be DIR (average your depth in your head? I need to take my shoes and socks off to count to twenty, gag me and I can't count at all):o
BUT after 20+ years of diving I've found a configuration that is;
Cheap
Simple
Will protect me from the vast majority of gas supply failure modes without relying on a buddy
Doesn't need radically re-organisation from dive to dive and will grow from entry level diving to multiple gas deco dives without spending a fortune.
Has fewer 'failure points'. Now I've never particularly been troubled by things going phut during a dive. If its working at the beginning of the dive it'll probably be working at the end (with the exception of torches). But when I go away somewhere like the SoM or Scapa it's nice to know that a broken clip won't completely screw the gig before I even get in the water.
Plus I still like my luxuries like a dSMBsi and a computer;)
Plus Plus, If someone told me all this, in advance, for free, twenty years ago I would have saved an absolute mint.
I prefer to think of it as simply a hog rig, I'm not nearly good enough, slim enough or clever enough to be DIR (average your depth in your head? I need to take my shoes and socks off to count to twenty, gag me and I can't count at all):o
BUT after 20+ years of diving I've found a configuration that is;
Cheap
Simple
Will protect me from the vast majority of gas supply failure modes without relying on a buddy
Doesn't need radically re-organisation from dive to dive and will grow from entry level diving to multiple gas deco dives without spending a fortune.
Has fewer 'failure points'. Now I've never particularly been troubled by things going phut during a dive. If its working at the beginning of the dive it'll probably be working at the end (with the exception of torches). But when I go away somewhere like the SoM or Scapa it's nice to know that a broken clip won't completely screw the gig before I even get in the water.
Plus I still like my luxuries like a dSMBsi and a computer;)
Plus Plus, If someone told me all this, in advance, for free, twenty years ago I would have saved an absolute mint.
the beauty of a aladin tec 2g in gauge mode works out yr average depth for you.
Id of saved a few pounds too.
Lizardland
21-09-07, 16:03
I prefer to think of it as simply a hog rig
I always considered myself hogarthian rather than DIR as well. I like the odd solo bimble.
I'm not nearly good enough, slim enough or clever enough to be DIR
Neither are most DIR divers but they talk a good dive :D
BUT after 20+ years of diving I've found a configuration that is; Cheap... Simple... Will protect me from the vast majority of gas supply failure modes without relying on a buddy... Doesn't need radically re-organisation from dive to dive and will grow from entry level diving to multiple gas deco dives without spending a fortune... Has fewer 'failure points'. Now I've never particularly been troubled by things going phut during a dive. If its working at the beginning of the dive it'll probably be working at the end (with the exception of torches). But when I go away somewhere like the SoM or Scapa it's nice to know that a broken clip won't completely screw the gig before I even get in the water.
All the same resons I did it as well.
Which one have you got?
18" of finest Canadian water main, KISS classic. It doesn't feel much different from a twinset and is rigged in a very similar way. A lot of other RB's were too much of a departure.
Cheers,
Stuart
Kiss was mentioned to me at the start of this week something to do with the lungs backmounted??? which means its more like a twinset than a YBOD to dive or at least thats what i think he meant.
Lizardland
21-09-07, 19:49
Kiss was mentioned to me at the start of this week something to do with the lungs backmounted??? which means its more like a twinset than a YBOD to dive or at least thats what i think he meant.
Yep, it's rigged in exactly the same way as the twinset, same backplate & harness. Only differences are the O2 valve next to the wing inflator, the displays on your wrist and the twin hoses. OK, so nothing like a twinset really, but you know what I mean. It's not a major jump in kit rigging. I've even had people comment on boats that they didn't notice I was on a rebreather as it doesn't look different from the front. I still have the long hose reg for donation though it's on a bungee round my neck rather than in my gob.
Until recently a big chunk of KISS divers were ex-DIR or Hogarthian type divers.
Cheers,
Stuart
wow cheers guys.
i think i might go for some diverite gear prob the rec wing but not sure whether to go for the
transpac = http://www.diveriteexpress.com/bcs/transpac.shtml
or the
transplate = http://www.diveriteexpress.com/bcs/transplate.shtml
there pretty much the same harness only one has a steal plate and the other looks to have a plastic plate with a lot more padding but still capable of taking twins and even a ccr with ease.
kyle
You want a metal plate. It will take weight off your belt and the holes in the plastic ones can elongate over time (apparently)
Mr Flibble
31-10-07, 12:57
Wing = Custom Divers TDB.
You won't get better.
Lizardland
31-10-07, 13:27
Wing = Custom Divers TDB.
You won't get better.
It's not quite panto season but...
Oh yes you will :D
Mr Flibble
01-11-07, 13:44
Oh no you won't :D
Oh yes you will.
Diverite Classic or Rec Wing
OMS Bungeed 100lb in Black
Ooooh "they're behind you!" ;) (the DIR crowd about to tell you bungees are evil ;) :D )
Mines a TDB, don't care whether or not it's trendy, it works. :)
Aye the TDB is a nice wing, I know, Bungeed and DIR don't mix but i don't know why, it's easy to blow up orally and the bungees are tight enough not to snag anything. It also looks the DB's :D and was a good deal, though the comfort harness pads are ****e and now live in my bin :D
Lizardland
01-11-07, 23:17
Aye the TDB is a nice wing, I know, Bungeed and DIR don't mix but i don't know why, it's easy to blow up orally and the bungees are tight enough not to snag anything. It also looks the DB's :D and was a good deal, though the comfort harness pads are ****e and now live in my bin :D
Mate of mine got a leak in his bungeed wing on the way up from a dive, the bungees emptied the wing, dropping him back to the bottom, inflated it again and started swimming up, bungees squeezed the air out again, dropped down again, then same thing happened again, he ended up pulling himself up hand over hand and the wing went on ebay.
Mate of mine got a leak in his bungeed wing on the way up from a dive, the bungees emptied the wing, dropping him back to the bottom, inflated it again and started swimming up, bungees squeezed the air out again, dropped down again, then same thing happened again, he ended up pulling himself up hand over hand and the wing went on ebay.
i think any wing would deflate with water pressure if penetrated.
i agree it would be quicker on a bungeed wing but the likelihood of this happening to a general sport diver must be rather slim odds.
i have 2 custom divers wings, the TBK sports & the VBS, none are bungeed :D
Also the bungees only take effect once it's mostly inflated, and underwater it isn't.
Plus if the wing/bcd fails you use the suit (or vice versa). If you're diving wet (like I do) then use a second bladder. It *doesn't* give you any more lift btw, just redundancy. :)
Horses for courses. If you're grubbing through narrow gaps (cave diving/doing serious wreck penetration) then bungees are probably a bad thing on the whole. If you don't generally squeeze through small holes then no worries. For most sports type divers I see, bungees are the least of their snag worries*!! ;) :p
*and before anyone starts throwing rocks, no I have not been without sin on that front at times :o
Lizardland
02-11-07, 01:04
i think any wing would deflate with water pressure if penetrated.
i agree it would be quicker on a bungeed wing but the likelihood of this happening to a general sport diver must be rather slim odds.
Depends where you get the hole. I've punctured a Dive Rite wing and it still held air. My mate's deflated pretty much in under a minute.
It doesn't have to be a puncture, I've had OPV's get stuck open, corrugated hose cracking/coming lose, etc.
Also the bungees only take effect once it's mostly inflated, and underwater it isn't.
What's the point of the bungees then if they aren't doing anything unless it's fully inflated? On the original Dive Rite and OMS wings which first used them the idea was to reduce the bulk of very big wings when they were only partially inflated, the bungee would be squeezing the excess material into a compact size to stop it flapping. If the bungees on that wing aren't doing anything when it's partially inflated then there doesn't really seem much point to them.
Genuine question, I'm not trying to start an argument.
Cheers,
Stuart
What's the point of the bungees then if they aren't doing anything unless it's fully inflated? On the original Dive Rite and OMS wings which first used them the idea was to reduce the bulk of very big wings when they were only partially inflated, the bungee would be squeezing the excess material into a compact size to stop it flapping. If the bungees on that wing aren't doing anything when it's partially inflated then there doesn't really seem much point to them.
Genuine question, I'm not trying to start an argument.
Cheers,
Stuart
I can only speak for mine, but without bungees it is pretty damn big, the bungees only pull the sides together not the whole wing but they do reduce it to a more manageable(less flappy) size. Underwater you're only using a bit of air in the wing so it's no probs. On the surface when you fully inflate they open out and you get the full 300(?)N lift. So it reduces the flapping without afai can tell affecting the wings useability. If I thought they were an issue I'd just take them off, the flaps/eyelets for mounting them are not a snag issue in themselves, and tbh I reckon the elastic would break if you pulled hard enough. Just one of these bits of kit that is there and never gives me an issue so I don't worry overmuch on it :)
Having used bcd's with insufficient buoyancy I quite like having stupidly large amounts available when desired, much comfier! :D
I'm absolutely not trying to start arguments either, it's nice to be able to discuss this sort of thing without adherents getting stressed over their particular choice of kit being the only way! If we had the option here you'd get a "green" ;) :D
Regards,
Smudge
My Posiedon Besea has bungee's in a "horsecollar" configuration. These are also mounted inside the protective cover so there is no chance of snagging.
The idea if these is to take up any loose material and "clamshell" it around your cylinders whilst underwater, thereby reducing your profile (and there is a fair amount of material there (http://staff.stir.ac.uk/charles.mcgurk/diving/susac071007/photo12.html))
I went through a stage of playing with the tension to get this to work properly but it made packing it away harder, it bunched up the material and I couldn't fold it flat, so I loosened it off again. I think when I'm in the water and "horizontal" the air sits in the bulge of the wing and wraps around the cylinder anyway :rolleyes:
Depends where you get the hole. I've punctured a Dive Rite wing and it still held air. My mate's deflated pretty much in under a minute.
It doesn't have to be a puncture, I've had OPV's get stuck open, corrugated hose cracking/coming lose, etc.
What's the point of the bungees then if they aren't doing anything unless it's fully inflated? On the original Dive Rite and OMS wings which first used them the idea was to reduce the bulk of very big wings when they were only partially inflated, the bungee would be squeezing the excess material into a compact size to stop it flapping. If the bungees on that wing aren't doing anything when it's partially inflated then there doesn't really seem much point to them.
Genuine question, I'm not trying to start an argument.
Cheers,
Stuart
good points made.
on the positive side supporting the bungee brigade...
a friend of mine has a CD TDB wing, he routes his LP & HP hoses through them before bringing them central to his chest area.
rightly or wrongly, all very neat & trim, some might even say... snag free ;)
like any piece of kit, if its of no use, why take it along/keep it/use it...
if i used bungees, i think i'd do the same.... but i don't.. so im waffling..
Scuba-Doh!
06-11-07, 13:00
If we had the option here you'd get a "green" ;) :D
Green incoming! ;)
Mr Flibble
08-11-07, 16:46
Mate of mine got a leak in his bungeed wing on the way up from a dive, the bungees emptied the wing, dropping him back to the bottom, inflated it again and started swimming up, bungees squeezed the air out again, dropped down again, then same thing happened again, he ended up pulling himself up hand over hand and the wing went on ebay.
If he was in a drysuit, why didn't he use that for bouyancy? I only use my wing to keep me afloat when putting on or taking off my fins. As for OMS wings I think they are sh*te. I thought about getting one a few years back but the lad I dived with bought one and didn't really get very comfy with it, this put me off. The manual inflator is faaarrrrrrrrr to short. Doesn't have a pull dump so you have to hold it above your head to dump, it will inevitably get lots of water in that way, and the wing has wwwwwaaaayyyy too much lift. Oh and it's American so the build quality is sh*t.
I bought my CD TDB 2nd hand about 3 years ago, it has lots of nice features, is black, build is bombproof, also made in Britain so parts easily ordered, Oh and most important of all it's not DIR. :cool:
P.S. Have dived a non bungied wing before, didn't like it. I fully inflate mine to fit my fins, trying to dump residual air out of a non bungied wing in my view is a real pain, difficult to get all the air out.
aren't Custom Divers & OMS inflater's the same thing?
Lizardland
08-11-07, 23:35
If he was in a drysuit, why didn't he use that for bouyancy?
Because he had a sh*tload of stages on and twin 20's.
The manual inflator is faaarrrrrrrrr to short. Doesn't have a pull dump so you have to hold it above your head to dump, it will inevitably get lots of water in that way
I like a short inflator, I find it sits out the way and makes dumping easier. Whenever I've bought a new wing the first thing I've done is get rid of the pull dump. I've had them go wrong, I can't stand them. Water isn't the end of the world in a wing, just dump it out the bottom dump.
The manual inflator is faaarrrrrrrrr to short. Doesn't have a pull dump so you have to hold it above your head to dump, it will inevitably get lots of water in that way, .
Just use the bottom dump
Mr Flibble
10-11-07, 11:10
aren't Custom Divers & OMS inflater's the same thing?
The inflators may be similar but the OMS has an angled elbow where the hose meets the wing, the CD has a pull dump valve at the top of the hose, which is nice and long.
Because he had a sh*tload of stages on and twin 20's.
Fair enough. Twin 20's so he didn't have any spine left then?
I like a short inflator, I find it sits out the way and makes dumping easier. Whenever I've bought a new wing the first thing I've done is get rid of the pull dump. I've had them go wrong, I can't stand them. Water isn't the end of the world in a wing, just dump it out the bottom dump.
All down to preference, if thats what your comfortable with.
Just use the bottom dump
But that would mean 1. Having to stick my ar*e in the air and I'm a lazy git and 2. Having to find the thing, my pull hose dump sits right at my hand.
Anyway I think the general concensus (and answer to the original question) is get a wing and backplate as this is far more adaptable than a Stabby. Which one is really down to your own preference dictated by your own style of diving and needs.