View Full Version : Shared Ascents?
I see from the latest edition of Scottish Diver that ScotSAC is putting a stop to all shared ascents in sport and master diver training courses. I suppose this must be because there have been incidents involving trainees doing these exercises.
There was some debate about this around the BBQ at Furnace on Sunday. Personally, my (uninformed) opinion is that I'm glad that I trained using these drills. Shared ascents can be necessary sometimes. We had one in our club a couple of years ago (Ding - care to share that tale with us?). I would prefer that my buddy didn't have a problem sharing his/her spit with me at any depth. call me a perv, but you just never know. And it's easy to lose track of an octopus ...
What's your opinion? Shared ascent drills are an important part of training ... or shared ascents are dangerous and should not be part of training.
Good topic, Gord.
Do any other training agencies still do them? I understood that this change brought ScotSAC in line with BSAC & PADI. What about the others? :confused:
Trainees will still have to do static DV shares. Personally I feel that it's a case of balancing potential risks and benefits of training. I didn't mind doing shared ascents myself, but can understand the reservations that some have. Perhaps simplifying things is better: that way there's less chance of a panicking diver instinctively sharing a DV with a buddy rather than using the octopus. I agree though, that some divers should show more discipline in securing their alternative air sources in a position where they can access them: I see lots of divers with their octopi dangling 1m behind them in the silt... yuk! :eek:
P.S. Gord, my diving companions weren't up for Stallion Rock on Sunday. Some complaints about too long a walk or something. :( Will definitely want to go there another day though. :D
Do any other training agencies still do them? I understood that this change brought ScotSAC in line with BSAC & PADI. What about the others? :confused:
Probably not. You're right about PADI and BSAC.
I see lots of divers with their octopi dangling 1m behind them in the silt... yuk! :eek:
And it's easy to lose the connection - most people have their octopus on too short a hose imho. It's quite easy to break the connection and then have to fumble around for the DV again
P.S. Gord, my diving companions weren't up for Stallion Rock on Sunday. Some complaints about too long a walk or something. :( Will definitely want to go there another day though. :D
All this talk of Stallion Rock has whetted my appetite for it. Maybe do a dive or two there in August. I'll let you know if you're interested!
All this talk of Stallion Rock has whetted my appetite for it. Maybe do a dive or two there in August. I'll let you know if you're interested!
Definitely! :cool:
I don't mind a bit of a walk (or so I say while I'm sitting in front of a PC)! :eek:
Definitely! :cool:
I don't mind a bit of a walk (or so I say while I'm sitting in front of a PC)! :eek:
Yep its easy to say yes sitting at the PC. But when u have to walk fully kitted back from Stalione rock up thru the trees and the midges are having a feast, and u think your suit has leaked but its the sweat from getting back to the car !!! Fancy Conger or Finnart.
I know what u r thinking r u a man or mouse
Pass the cheese
:D
I see from the latest edition of Scottish Diver that ScotSAC is putting a stop to all shared ascents in sport and master diver training courses. I suppose this must be because there have been incidents involving trainees doing these exercises.
There was some debate about this around the BBQ at Furnace on Sunday. Personally, my (uninformed) opinion is that I'm glad that I trained using these drills. Shared ascents can be necessary sometimes. We had one in our club a couple of years ago (Ding - care to share that tale with us?). I would prefer that my buddy didn't have a problem sharing his/her spit with me at any depth. call me a perv, but you just never know. And it's easy to lose track of an octopus ...
What's your opinion? Shared ascent drills are an important part of training ... or shared ascents are dangerous and should not be part of training.
I still think master divers should be able to do shared ascents after all they are "master divers" able to look after themselves and others
maybe sport divers will now be reduced to the level of POW divers only able to dive with a suitably qualified diver.
PADI still do Buddy breathing as an optional skill as part of the open water course
But you have to do it as part of your Divemaster during the stress test but not with an ascent.
BSAC have the view that every diver should be diving with a pony or another source of redone dent air thus there is no reason to teach buddy breathing ascents.
But the problem is that in a real out of air situation a lot of people grab the DV in there buddys mouth not the octopus.
So the person with the air should push his buddy away find the octopus throw that in there mouth ascent, beat there buddy up, tell everyone in the club the story and make sure never to dive with this person again.
Should SCOTSAC teach a skill that no other school or club system teach any more?
I know of a couple of people that got infections from doing out air and using there BCD BPI for air during club teaching
PADI still do Buddy breathing as an optional skill as part of the open water course
But you have to do it as part of your Divemaster during the stress test but not with an ascent.
The new ScotSAC requirements will still involve buddy breathing, both in the pool and open water, but will not involve the ascent part of the procedure.
I still think master divers should be able to do shared ascents after all they are "master divers" able to look after themselves and others
maybe sport divers will now be reduced to the level of POW divers only able to dive with a suitably qualified diver.
Quite right, Ding. But MD training will not involve buddy breathing ascents either under the new proposals. Do you think that MDs should undertake practice of them on a voluntary basis? Do BSAC Advanced Divers have to do them?
The new ScotSAC requirements will still involve buddy breathing, both in the pool and open water, but will not involve the ascent part of the procedure.
Quite right, Ding. But MD training will not involve buddy breathing ascents either under the new proposals. Do you think that MDs should undertake practice of them on a voluntary basis? Do BSAC Advanced Divers have to do them?
Dont know about BSAC mabe sombody out there will let us know
I think Its not hard to do and if you cant do it mabe you r not master diver material and should stick to sport diving :eek:
I don't see the point of learning to buddy breath, if it is not going to progress to an emergency shared assent. Let's go worst case scenario;
Two divers in the water, let's say 35M, one has a rigged pony no octopus, the other has an octopus rig and no pony. The diver with the octo rig has an OOA situation due to equipment failure. Incidentally, you should not just run out of air because the two divers are checking their contents guages (SPG) frequently. ;)
Moving on, the assent begins with the OOA diver using the pony. Questions arise here, is the pony full? will 3litres be enough to get from 35M to the surface? Will they complete a deco stop? What if the pony set up fails to function?
Empty pony = shared assent to the surface.
Pony empties = shared assent to the surface.
Pony fails = shared assent to the surface.
Deco stop = shared assent to the surface.
Never been taught how to carry out a shared assent = DISASTER
Keeping the shared assent training = PRICELESS. ;)
Just the ramblings from a dinosaur ;D
Moving on, the assent begins with the OOA diver using the pony. Questions arise here, is the pony full? will 3litres be enough to get from 35M to the surface? Will they complete a deco stop? What if the pony set up fails to function?
Empty pony = shared assent to the surface.
Pony empties = shared assent to the surface.
Pony fails = shared assent to the surface.
Deco stop = shared assent to the surface.
Never been taught how to carry out a shared assent = DISASTER
Keeping the shared assent training = PRICELESS. ;)
Just the ramblings from a dinosaur ;D
Good points. I would question whether a 3 litre pony is enough of an alternative air source if diving much deeper than 30m. An inexperienced panicking diver could quite easily breathe a 3 litre pony dry. I was having this discussion recently with one of our club members. Personally, I think that having an octo rig on the main cylinder is a good idea in addition to the pony.
But this is a different discussion really, which has been done to death on other fora such as YD. :rolleyes:
Lizardland
04-07-06, 23:38
I think it's a bad idea. In my experience it's novice divers who are most likely to need to share air. I'd rather they got experience in controlled conditions than have to learn in a real air sharing situation. There's a hell of a lot going on in a real situation: no air to breathe, high anxiety levels, trying to share air (if one diver is out of air then there is a very real possibility that the donor diver is going to be low on air too), no air for buoyancy or suit, it all mounts up. I really wouldn't want to go into that unprepared and I certainly wouldn't like to donate to someone who had never done it before either.
If it's done towards the end of a course when the student has a level of comfort and maybe some buoyancy control then it isn't that hard to keep a training situation under control. I really can't agree with legislating out an essential skill because it is hard to teach. If anything the teaching methods need to be revised, not getting rid of one of the most impotant skills you can have.
If I was going to change anything then I'd make a 1.5m (minimum) octopus hose mandatory. A shared ascent is so much easier rather than trying it on a standard octopus.
Cheers,
Stuart
I think it's a bad idea. In my experience it's novice divers who are most likely to need to share air. I'd rather they got experience in controlled conditions than have to learn in a real air sharing situation. There's a hell of a lot going on in a real situation: no air to breathe, high anxiety levels, trying to share air (if one diver is out of air then there is a very real possibility that the donor diver is going to be low on air too), no air for buoyancy or suit, it all mounts up. I really wouldn't want to go into that unprepared and I certainly wouldn't like to donate to someone who had never done it before either.
If it's done towards the end of a course when the student has a level of comfort and maybe some buoyancy control then it isn't that hard to keep a training situation under control. I really can't agree with legislating out an essential skill because it is hard to teach. If anything the teaching methods need to be revised, not getting rid of one of the most impotant skills you can have.
If I was going to change anything then I'd make a 1.5m (minimum) octopus hose mandatory. A shared ascent is so much easier rather than trying it on a standard octopus.
Cheers,
Stuart
There is a bit on the SSAC website where u can tell them what u think
http://www.scotsac.com/about_ssac/have_your_say.htm
I have already done so
Ding :cool:
Further to Bikerbill's riff about ponies etc., I once tried an asssisted ascent from 30 to the surface donating my pony to my buddy. We took it at a reasonable, i.e. not fast, rate, and he ran OOA at about 5m and we switched to BB. i.e. if you breath a pony from around 30 to the surface, and don't get a move on (donating or not), chances are you'll suck it dry before you get there.
Given that OOA situations entail a lot of fannying around, hose organisation and "settling down" before the pair even start to ascend, donating a pony is probably feck all use, unless you're ready to buddy breath at some point.
Ding, how about that account about you and Grant on the Kintyre?
why bother to carry an octopus then?
real sistuation diver runs out of air grabs buddys main DV then raps the hose around there arm so the diver can't get there DV back
diver with no reg trys to fight off buddy and give them there octopus
ends up having to use the octopus themselve
1. OOA diver grabs main DV = force them your octopus
2. OOA diver grabs main DV = you use your octopus
a novice diver in a real OOA isn't going to give your DV back for buddy breathing ascent
I suppose the main conclusion then is to carry a good knife
Lizardland
05-07-06, 11:09
real sistuation diver runs out of air grabs buddys main DV...
1. OOA diver grabs main DV = force them your octopus
2. OOA diver grabs main DV = you use your octopus
a novice diver in a real OOA isn't going to give your DV back for buddy breathing ascent
I breathe my main reg as my octopus i.e. it is on a 2m hose and I expect my buddy to either take it from my mouth or if he gives me a signal then I donate it. I then go to my back-up reg which is on a lanyard round my neck. I've been diving like that for years.
As mentioned, the out of air diver inevitably goes for the reg he can find easiest. Also, it's a functioning reg, you do not want to be giving an octopus to a panicked diver that may have been dragged through the silt, gravel, etc. The donating diver is far better placed to deal with the situation of a reg full of rubbish. If you dive with a deco bottle which will have gas that is not safe to breathe at depth then someone grabbing at any reg may grab that. He'll either get a toxic gas or a reg that is switched off. Neither is good.
A diver going for the reg in the mouth knows it's working and knows it's safe to use because the donor is already breathing it. So you might as well prepare for it, put the reg on a decent hose and make the decision that if it happens then that is how you will share air.
Cheers,
Stuart
I breathe my main reg as my octopus i.e. it is on a 2m hose and I expect my buddy to either take it from my mouth or if he gives me a signal then I donate it. I then go to my back-up reg which is on a lanyard round my neck. I've been diving like that for years.
As mentioned, the out of air diver inevitably goes for the reg he can find easiest. Also, it's a functioning reg, you do not want to be giving an octopus to a panicked diver that may have been dragged through the silt, gravel, etc. The donating diver is far better placed to deal with the situation of a reg full of rubbish. If you dive with a deco bottle which will have gas that is not safe to breathe at depth then someone grabbing at any reg may grab that. He'll either get a toxic gas or a reg that is switched off. Neither is good.
A diver going for the reg in the mouth knows it's working and knows it's safe to use because the donor is already breathing it. So you might as well prepare for it, put the reg on a decent hose and make the decision that if it happens then that is how you will share air.
Cheers,
Stuart
I think that is definitely a summary of best practice. A few years ago when DIR was high profile, I kept thinking I should adopt this long-hose on main reg set-up, but I never did.
This Sunday, I was doing some training, with a trainee as it happens, and we were practicing assisted ascents. Both of us had standard hose lengths on our octopi, and it was barely adequate. It would have been easier to buddy breath.
Right, I'm off to aquatron to buy a long hose and some elastic. oo-er.
bubblemaker
05-07-06, 18:31
under the new scotsac proposals, it is only rthe buddy breathing ascents that are being stopped... ascents using an alternate air source are still happening.
i personally think it's a bunch of arse...given all training should be done progressively to minimize the risks, i don't see what's so dangerous about it..in fact i would agree with previous comments that not doing it is dangerous. i had to do them, every diver i knopw had to do them, and i have never heard of anyone getting into any sort of great problems whilst doing it..
i reckon they're just covering there arses in case anything ever does go wrong, and pandering to the bloody do gooding liberal twats, who think everyone should be wrapped in bloody cotton wool...oooohh they make me mad...
dive granny
05-07-06, 20:20
I think |Orca sounds like a real 'hairy arsed 'diver. Bit scary :eek: :eek: I am glad I learnt to buddy share. Actually I had to in the Red Sea with amazing Martin:D
I think |Orca sounds like a real 'hairy arsed 'diver. Bit scary :eek: :eek: I am glad I learnt to buddy share. Actually I had to in the Red Sea with amazing Martin:D
Has everyone voted on the poll for this so far it looks like shared ascents are winning
If an alternative air source is a 3Ltr pony, that is going to be an interesting ascent from 30M:D Incidentally, I am sure I read recently that two divers sharing one first stage, ie main reg & octopus can cause the first stage to malfunction:eek: OOA diver breathing harder than his buddy? Would this suggest that both divers have to be really calm.
PS when I first started diving in 19 canteen we were trained to carry out a free ascent, that was abolished because some thought that it was too dangerous. It is all down to the correct training and regular practice.
If an alternative air source is a 3Ltr pony, that is going to be an interesting ascent from 30M:D Incidentally, I am sure I read recently that two divers sharing one first stage, ie main reg & octopus can cause the first stage to malfunction:eek: OOA diver breathing harder than his buddy? Would this suggest that both divers have to be really calm.
PS when I first started diving in 19 canteen we were trained to carry out a free ascent, that was abolished because some thought that it was too dangerous. It is all down to the correct training and regular practice.
Yep but a deep dive then was 20meters
But point taken
Ding :D
Lizardland
06-07-06, 12:15
Incidentally, I am sure I read recently that two divers sharing one first stage, ie main reg & octopus can cause the first stage to malfunction:eek: OOA diver breathing harder than his buddy? Would this suggest that both divers have to be really calm.
Yep, it does happen, especially when it is cold. There was a double fatality in Dorothea Quarry in Wales a couple of years ago where it happened. First diver's reg went into freeflow so he started sharing off his buddy's. That went into freeflow too.
85% in favour of shared ascents at the moment ... seems pretty clear.
I think this exercise is too dangerous for inexperienced trainees with poor buoyancy control.
Everyone should have octopus and pony bottle in order to avoid this situation. You should have other means of air supply. Even experienced divers in emergency situations can easily fail to manage stressful tasks.
I think this exercise is too dangerous for inexperienced trainees with poor buoyancy control.
Everyone should have octopus and pony bottle in order to avoid this situation. You should have other means of air supply. Even experienced divers in emergency situations can easily fail to manage stressful tasks.
This means we need to plan for air failure and carry enough gas for two people. A 3L pony will not get a panicking diver to the surface with stops so if we do 30m dives we all need to use a twinset or sideslung sevens. :eek:
Lizardland
10-07-06, 23:01
This means we need to plan for air failure and carry enough gas for two people. A 3L pony will not get a panicking diver to the surface with stops so if we do 30m dives we all need to use a twinset or sideslung sevens. :eek:
There's an old diving saying that I got taught years ago that goes: if you think you need a pony then what you actually need is a twinset, if you think you don't need a pony then just dive a single and don't bother with the pony.
I went diving with a Danish club in Norway a few years ago and they said that their organisation's rules stated that twinsets were obligatory once you got to a certain level i.e. past the novice stages.
To be honest, I'd much rather use my twin 7/300's than a 12 and a pony.
There's an old diving saying that I got taught years ago that goes: if you think you need a pony then what you actually need is a twinset, if you think you don't need a pony then just dive a single and don't bother with the pony.
I went diving with a Danish club in Norway a few years ago and they said that their organisation's rules stated that twinsets were obligatory once you got to a certain level i.e. past the novice stages.
To be honest, I'd much rather use my twin 7/300's than a 12 and a pony.
I'd much rather use my twin 3L in side their yellow box with the 3 hours it gives:D
I've often considered twin 12's ... but not many people in our club use them. In fact, since Wilson and Grant left, there's no-one.
I would really have enjoyed this set-up last August in Orkney. The dives were deep, and I was time-limited with my 15L. Also, the boat had an on-board compressor and the skipper's lad was filling tanks between dives. If i'd had a twinset, then I could have enjoyed longer bottom times on every dive.
I've always thought that the downside was on a 2-dive day, with no chance to refill between dives. For example, deep shore diving or hardboat diving in teh sound of mull. If you only have a twin12, surely that doesn't leave much redundant air for your 2nd dive of the day?
I might investigate this Autumn. right now i'm SKINT.
Lizardland
11-07-06, 09:57
I'd much rather use my twin 3L in side their yellow box :D
I've no box to put them in so I have to strap them either side of my 18" of Canadian bog pipe :)
I really think a RB is definitely the safest option deeper than 25-30m(ish). I'd never dream of diving deep on OC again.
I've no box to put them in so I have to strap them either side of my 18" of Canadian bog pipe :)
I really think a RB is definitely the safest option deeper than 25-30m(ish). I'd never dream of diving deep on OC again.
Why do you say "safest"? The thing that puts me off RB's - aside from the large price tag - is the reputation for lethal incidents if the user slips up. i.e. that they are unforgiving in a way that OS isn't. I'm genuinely interested because I would like to upgrade my kit for longer BT's at some point in teh next few years ... currently i'm favouring a twin12 option
I also want not to be narked below 40m, but hte operating expense of trimix puts me off, and I've no great desire to start using a load of side slings etc. too much hassle.
I just want longer bottom times and not to be narked on deeper dives ...
Why do you say "safest"? The thing that puts me off RB's - aside from the large price tag - is the reputation for lethal incidents if the user slips up. i.e. that they are unforgiving in a way that OS isn't. I'm genuinely interested because I would like to upgrade my kit for longer BT's at some point in teh next few years ... currently i'm favouring a twin12 option
I also want not to be narked below 40m, but hte operating expense of trimix puts me off, and I've no great desire to start using a load of side slings etc. too much hassle.
I just want longer bottom times and not to be narked on deeper dives ...
There is no dout u r a candidate for the yellow box, u just ticked the boxes except for the price but now u have a rich wife (soon) she can buy u one
and u can join us in the raptures of the deep he he :D
I think this exercise is too dangerous for inexperienced trainees with poor buoyancy control.
Everyone should have octopus and pony bottle in order to avoid this situation. You should have other means of air supply. Even experienced divers in emergency situations can easily fail to manage stressful tasks.
Hi Helen
I have been asked over the years to take trainees from other branches to train/assess them in shared air ascents. What I did notice was that very few had actually practiced this skill beforehand. It will not be the first time I had stopped the training because of their inexperience.
Very seldom do I dive with an octopus and never with a pony (stuffs my balance) my buddy is carrying the emergency air :D :D I know of an experienced Instructor who panicked underwater due to what he thought was a faulty DV, the trainee he was diving with took command of the situation and brought the Instructor up safely.
Lizardland
11-07-06, 13:47
Diving a rebreather is fine provided:
- you understand completely the rebreather you are diving
- no matter how much diving you've done open circuit before, you're still a novice on a RB for a long time
- you do everything exactly the same before, during and after every dive every time.
It isn't that hard... I can do it :) The vast majority of rebreather fatalaties are either not directly RB related or users who thought they could cut corners. You need to follow the protocols every time. I've used other rebreathers but on the KISS as long as you pack the scrubber properly and calibrate the O2 displays properly (neither is difficult) then you have to go a long way to get a problem.
Anyway... the reason I say it's safest... in no particular order:
- Time. The KISS has at least 4hrs of gas regardless of depth. As long as you can still breathe, there aren't many problems you can't sort out. Time is only really limited by the amount of deco you can be bothered with. Even if something catastrophic happens and you end up with both bottles empty then the rebreather is still breathable for around 3-4min (at least, maybe more) after the gas stops.
- Options: rebreathers have a hell of a lot of options to get you back to the surface if something breaks. Other than a torn loop hose or counterlung or a complete scrubber failure (usually due to user error) there is nothing that needs instant action. You get thinking time on a rebreather when things go wrong and a lot of the time you get advance warning of something bad on its way. You can run out of gas and still be able to breathe. The electronics can fail (on the KISS anyway) and you can still run the rebreather to get home.
- Less mechanical stress on equipment: Most of the problems I've had on OC have been torn hoses, blown o-rings, freeflowing regulators and damaged hoses. On a rebreather, most of the gas routes are at a pressure equal to that of the surrounding water. This means orings and seals are less likely to fail. Gas is only ever added in tiny amounts so you won't get a freeflowing reg.
- Gas: you always get the right gas for the right depth. It's like diving on the ideal nitrox every time, even on multilevel dives. It's wet too, no dehydration during the dive (a big culprit in bends). It's also warm. Being cold on deep dives is bad too, you really notice the difference when you breathe warm gas. I also generally have some helium in the loop, even as shallow as 20m. Having a clear head really cuts down stress and makes very little difference to deco times (I just dive it on a normal computer <40m). I used to get really tired after a dive, I don't feel that now.
By far the biggest safety benefit is time. If you know you have the time to sort out problems then there is no need to panic. And if things go really badly wrong then there is always your bail out bottle to get you home. There are also downsides but I think the benefits outweigh them.
If you fancy it then you're welcome to have a go on my KISS -- the yellow box isn't the only RB!!! For anybody considering going deeper I'd really recommend considering a rebreather rather than a twinset.
Cheers,
Stuart
Thanks for the detailed reply, Stuart.
What's the price tag on a KISS RB?
(i must not squander my money on expensive dive kit i must not squander my money on expensive dive kit i must not squander my money on expensive dive kit i must not squander my money on expensive dive kit i must not squander my money on expensive dive kit i must not squander my money on expensive dive kit i must not squander my money on expensive dive kit i must not squander my money on expensive dive kit i must not squander my money on expensive dive kit i must not squander my money on expensive dive kit i must not squander my money on expensive dive kit i must not squander my money on expensive dive kit ...)
Lizardland
11-07-06, 20:05
Thanks for the detailed reply, Stuart.
What's the price tag on a KISS RB?
(i must not squander my money on expensive dive kit...
The basic unit is approx £2800 but you need to provide a few other bits yourself. It depends really on what you already own.
The Classic KISS comes with just the rebreather unit itself. You need to add 3 oxygen sensors (£45 each), 3 batteries (£3 each), 2 cylinders, one for oxygen and one for diluent (a couple of pony bottles are ok).
The KISS is designed to work on a metal backplate and wing setup. I don't think there is any easy way to rig it to a stab jacket (it might work on a Transpac) and to be honest I don't think you would want to anyway. If you don't dive with a backplate and wing then you need to include for that as well. How much you spend is up to you, I use a dirt cheap one.
The big cost is training. Off the top of my head I'd guess around £300 for the course.
On top of that, you also need to budget about £500 for our good old Customs & Excise for doing feck all and for Parcelforce to lose it. It actually works out just as cheap to fly to Vancouver and bring it back in a holdall (it's only 15kg) though you run the risk of customs pulling you over at the airport.
The best way to buy a KISS is to buy second hand from within the EU because someone else will have paid the duty and there is no more to pay. Expect to pay £2500(ish) 2nd hand. I'd rather buy a used unit because you know it works. There are still so few that if you ask on Rebreather World about the history of unit No. whatever then someone will know. When one comes up for sale they go very fast so you need to act quick -- I flew to Cyprus to collect mine as soon as the seller accepted my offer.
The alternative is to buy a Sport KISS. This may be a cheaper option as everything you need (including tanks, wing, backplate and sensors) are included for £2600. Or you can buy the bare unit for £2200. It depends what you want. The Classic is designed for full technical diving, it's good to 100m and 4hr scrubber at least (the makers say 3hrs but that's conservative). The Sport KISS is designed for shallower diving and travel, it's rated to 50m and 2.5hrs (probably more like 2hrs realistically, I don't think the scrubber is very well designed). Also the Sport KISS has different O2 sensors, they have a much shorter life, probably less than a year. The Classic sensors last 18-24 months but cost the same.
You can get all the prices and manuals at www.jetsam.ca
It's not squandering... you need one... it's an investment...
Seriously, with any rebreather you buy, if you find out it isn't right for you then you can sell it on without losing much money. It isn't that much a gamble, and I've never known anyone that didn't prefer rebreather diving to OC.
OK, sales pitch over :)
Thanks Stuart.
I must say that everyone i've come across who has a RB loves it. Food for thought. :)
Thanks Stuart.
I must say that everyone i've come across who has a RB loves it. Food for thought. :)
Some day everybody will be diving them and laughing about the old fashioned scuba that they used to use. :D :D
Lizardland
11-07-06, 22:26
Some day everybody will be diving them and laughing about the old fashioned scuba that they used to use. :D :D
Funnily enough it's how diving started out then we went to surface supply then scuba and now back to rebreathers.
The new ScotSAC requirements will still involve buddy breathing, both in the pool and open water, but will not involve the ascent part of the procedure.
if i were in a situation where i was buddy breathing i think i would be heading for the surface, not taking pictures or swimming at the same depth.
reading between the lines it would appear that this is a situation where a trainee would be inclined to hold their breath, as a result this might compromise the SSAC insurance policy.
either way a skill learned is knowlege for the future. you cany buy experience.
rant over!
Lizardland
12-07-06, 10:10
Just to clarify, are the changes relating to buddy breathing (2 people sharing 1 reg) or donating an octopus?
Just to clarify, are the changes relating to buddy breathing (2 people sharing 1 reg) or donating an octopus?
ScotSAC trainees will no longer have to do have to do ascents where DV is shared. Will still have to do DV shares in pool & in open water, but not make an ascent doing so. Still have to conduct ascents as octopus donor & recipient with a compulsory safety stop.
Lizardland
12-07-06, 12:50
Cheers, that makes more sense.
A newly updated training schedule has just been uploaded to the ScotSAC web site:
It now includes deployment of a dSMB & some additional dry suit manouevres.
http://www.scotsac.com/news.htm#sdtraining
Download the pdf file to see the whole thing. A very comprehensive document.
A newly updated training schedule has just been uploaded to the ScotSAC web site:
It now includes deployment of a dSMB & some additional dry suit manouevres.
http://www.scotsac.com/news.htm#sdtraining
Download the pdf file to see the whole thing. A very comprehensive document.
Yes and I notice that on the rescue there is no CPR
That means if the heart is stoped the diver will have the best ventilated lungs
but will be brain dead as the heart is not pumping blood round the body
Lizardland
02-08-06, 20:25
That's the same as with PADI's rescue course. CPR isn't done until on something solid e.g. land or a boat. I kind of agree with it, CPR in the water isn't realistic. If it was me, I'd rather get someone clear of the water as quickly as possible before attempting CPR. I'm sure I read a report a few years ago that said attempts at CPR just ended up causing broken bones and delaying the rescue without actually doing anything useful. That makes sense to me.
That's the same as with PADI's rescue course. CPR isn't done until on something solid e.g. land or a boat. I kind of agree with it, CPR in the water isn't realistic. If it was me, I'd rather get someone clear of the water as quickly as possible before attempting CPR. I'm sure I read a report a few years ago that said attempts at CPR just ended up causing broken bones and delaying the rescue without actually doing anything useful. That makes sense to me.
Yes I agree no cpr in the water we have never taught this but it does not mention it on the shore!! In the old training it was 15 breaths to 2 compressions untill a doc told u to stop.
The problem with buddy air shared ascents is with the training, I remember many years ago doing a 30m ascent practice at Finnart with a buddy. We only had "one" air source each i.e. no octopuses (octopii?) no pony's. I was donating and at 20m my buddy freaked and decided he wasn't giving me my DV back. I had 2 options... kick him in the goolies and take my DV back (the vis was crap and I couldn't find his DV) or continue with a free ascent to the surface. I choose the latter and we both came off none the worse... (although I hav'nt dived with him since :()
My point is that we should gradually build up to 30m open water ascents. I think the training should be more gradual and would require the following ascents at 10m, 20m, and then 30m
1. Ascend up a sloping bottom while buddy breathing.
2. Ascend up a shot line while buddy breathing.
3. Open water ascent with a cliff or vertical structure for reference but no shot line to hold onto.
4. Open water ascent with no point of reference.
And finally how about an open water ascent from 35m in zero vis with a 2 knot current..... we've all dived in conditions like this, are we all confident we could buddy breathe in the same circumstances?
bubblemaker
04-08-06, 11:32
My point is that we should gradually build up to 30m open water ascents. I think the training should be more gradual and would require the following ascents at 10m, 20m, and then 30m
1. Ascend up a sloping bottom while buddy breathing.
2. Ascend up a shot line while buddy breathing.
3. Open water ascent with a cliff or vertical structure for reference but no shot line to hold onto.
4. Open water ascent with no point of reference.
And finally how about an open water ascent from 35m in zero vis with a 2 knot current..... we've all dived in conditions like this, are we all confident we could buddy breathe in the same circumstances?
i agree... i think they are looking at the problem from the wrong point of view.. i.e. this skill is too dangerous for trainees to learn.. lets scrap it. rather than .. this skill is too dangerous for trainees to do, so how can we make it safer?
I think you could easily argue that the way it tended to be done was dangerous, but it is an inhgerantly important skill to be able to carry out. if the training was done more gradual, as eddie suggests, doing more ascents from shallower depths.. then i don't see how it would be an issue. Also .. going back to an earlier point by sombody about inexperienced trainees, by the time an SSAC trainee gets to the point they are doing ascents, some training organisations would consider them experienced enough to dive on their own, and would already have them qualified!!
I also happen to think that blue/brown water acents on an SMB should be a mandatory skill in the sport diver award.. we all do it diving from boats..so why not make things safer by having people practice it first in as safe an environment as possible??
I have been training shared ascents for years now and its no problem. If trainees were to practice it would be a lot easier for them as well. every one want to be a diver ASAP, but ASAP does not always make a good diver!!!;)