View Full Version : Nitrox M26...or not
Article concerning Petition to reject the Euro requirements (http://www.divemagazine.co.uk/news/article.asp?UAN=3699&v=2&sp=)
Petition to the Government to reject the Euro requirements (http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/SCUBA-valves/#detail)
I have signed it!!
2124 signatures already!!
Beaver and Apeks have a conveter for DIN M25 to DIN M26. it costs about £9 or £10.
Unless the signature get over 100000 or more, it wont make any difference.
If the LDS's, all UK diver agencys (PADI, BSAC & SCOTSAC), all UK divers, and professional divers all make a stand and say NO.
But then again, this is the UK so the chances of having a combined effort are virtually zero.
You've gotta hope though havent you!
PS
Andy, send me you email address again by PM I have doodled up another logbook!!
Airmonster
05-06-07, 13:06
2124 signatures already!!
Added mine. 2125 now!
Being European legislation I should imagine the Uk will be the only country that adheres to it, there must be a lds in poland could just get a brickie, plasterer, plumber to bring new cylinders over on their way to work here.
Why do British people not make more of a united stand
france totally rejected car clamping if any of them seen a car clamped they would glue the clamp (clamping thus only lasted a week)
Holland have a big anti speed camera campaign
who has'nt been done by a camera by now
and the question is if 80% of road accidents happen on single roads why are all the speed cameras on dual roads.
there should be a united campaign agaist all of it HSE, junk mail, bank chargers, road works, etc,.
Why do British people not make more of a united stand
Because there are too many people too busy being terribly polite.
When I'm king.......
Lizardland
05-06-07, 16:48
Divers aren't a big lobby, it generates little revenue, manufacturers can't rival the palm greasing of big industry, it isn't going to change much in the way of voting patterns so the government won't care. Manufacturers won't want to lose their CE approvals so they won't stand up to it. All it'll cost them is some new tooling which in the grand scheme isn't major. Dive shops will make a packet out of selling adaptors, conversion kits, new valves and probably introducing some sort of inspection/assessment charge so they won't make a stand either. It'll cost them about £20 for a couple of adaptors from Sub Aqua Products for their fill whips and the rest is all profit. Who ends up paying for it...?
If anything, we'll all just end up with M26 fittings on everything, air, nitrox (probably a lot of EAN21 fills getting done), trimix, the lot, so we'll be right back where we started.
They cocked up the CE standard for rebreathers and now they are going to do the same with OC kit.
Isn't the useless lump that is John Prescott a diver? Shame he's getting his jotters :D
Cheers,
Stuart
Hardly going at racing pace 2133 now after I signed.
However even the editorial in Dive says "It is in all likelihood far too late to protest now, as the fitting has become established on the continent and future CE marks will depend on its presecnece"
If even the first part of this is true, where does that leave us on foreign holidays with old M25 kit not fitting Nitrox cylinders. I agree that we all need to buy converters, but wonder if that needs done real soon before someone thinks of banning them. Even then on holiday I am evisaging a variant of the old KwikFit line of "can't let you use that kit you brought with you, more than my jobs worth, here use our hire kit and this very reasonable rate!"
Even here if the rules come into force having a converter may not entirely help as I assume shops won't fill my current cylinders with nitrox, converter notwithstanding. I'll only be able to use the the converter to attatch my old regs to a new cylinder.
Anyone know what US sizes are and how this might affect them? When I have dived in US it was all hire equipment and I left my guage measuring kit at home ;) so couldn't check. Do they use the same size M25 as in current use or do they have a different system. If it's currently the same are they planning or already making the same changes. Might we even buy new M26 kit here that wont be usable other side of the Atlantic.
I assuem this affects the seating of an A-clamp just as much as it affects a screw in DIN fitting.
I'll get to be real techie with multiple regs and differing cylinders - how impressive - or more likely I'll just end up sticking to air, that'll be much safer :(
The last eleven posters are down below and include a few names you might recognise. The first one is particualrly recognisable and, might I suggest, may not count. :D
# Hans Hass n Friends
# Ian Butler
# Chris Reid
# Scott Thomson
# Colin Gray
# ANNE DARBY
# Les Maddams
# Alison Page
# Malcolm Murdoch
# Roger Godfrey
# andrew marks
# Peter McCormick
im with Stu on this one, we all convert & just fill them with air, Nx, Tx etc...
so back in the same boat as we are now.
no point to it.
if anyone is educated enough to to pass a basic or adv.Nx course then they must be smart enough to read a cylinder identification, MOD or mix.
i think the people they are trying to protect, are air divers who randomly pick up any cylinder & use it, not knowing its contents. the 'holiday' diver would be more likely than others to fall in to that catagory.
& before any 'warm water only' divers get the hump at that comment,
im not suggesting warm water divers are stupid.
although i will say, you are all missing out on some great scottish diving & that speaks for itself. ;)
i think the people they are trying to protect, are air divers who randomly pick up any cylinder & use it, not knowing its contents. the 'holiday' diver would be more likely than others to fall in to that catagory.
Or a holiday Divemaster who can't tell the difference between a-clamp and din tank......yes this did happen on a trip PeterM and I were on and the look of confusion on her face when the din tank she just fitted an a-clamp reg to was pissing air, oh how we laughed!!!
Or a holiday Divemaster who can't tell the difference between a-clamp and din tank......yes this did happen on a trip PeterM and I were on and the look of confusion on her face when the din tank she just fitted an a-clamp reg to was pissing air, oh how we laughed!!!
a kodak moment lost forever, that would have made good viewing.
...snip
Anyone know what US sizes are and how this might affect them? When I have dived in US it was all hire equipment and I left my guage measuring kit at home ;) so couldn't check. Do they use the same size M25 as in current use or do they have a different system. If it's currently the same are they planning or already making the same changes. Might we even buy new M26 kit here that wont be usable other side of the Atlantic.
..snip
Not 100% sure on the diving side of things, but the americans are still all imperial sizes (inches to you) whilst Europe are all metric (millimetres) so I would guess they have completely different sizes to us.
Lizardland
26-07-07, 16:27
Not 100% sure on the diving side of things, but the americans are still all imperial sizes (inches to you) whilst Europe are all metric (millimetres) so I would guess they have completely different sizes to us.
I think there is a bit of confusion over what thread is what. M25 is the neck thread, in the US they generally use 3/4"BSP neck threads. Whereas the M26 being discussed is the thread on the outlet which replaces the DIN outlet (which is a gauge thread, G5/8 if I remember). There is no obligation or reason for the US to go to the M26 thread for nitrox. I'd be amazed if they did. So anywhere which is influenced by US standard dive kit (pretty much the rest of the world outside of Europe) then European nitrox regulators will be useless.
Cheers,
Stuart
Dive Tramp
27-07-07, 02:30
Or a holiday Divemaster who can't tell the difference between a-clamp and din tank......yes this did happen on a trip PeterM and I were on and the look of confusion on her face when the din tank she just fitted an a-clamp reg to was pissing air, oh how we laughed!!!
Aw, don't go there! My Dive Partner (not giving away any clues as to her name!;) ) did the same when loaned a bottle from someone else just last week! She did say she was being rushed tho'! :D (and she wasn't the only one not to spot the difference!) :eek:
Just added my 2 cents worth to the petition :)
Article concerning Petition to reject the Euro requirements (http://www.divemagazine.co.uk/news/article.asp?UAN=3699&v=2&sp=)
Petition to the Government to reject the Euro requirements (http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/SCUBA-valves/#detail)
I have signed it!!
-dive-monkey-
27-07-07, 14:37
Aw, don't go there! My Dive Partner (not giving away any clues as to her name!;) ) did the same when loaned a bottle from someone else just last week! She did say she was being rushed tho'! :D (and she wasn't the only one not to spot the difference!) :eek:
Rushed to make tea at the Ship Inn I believe!! And the other lass not to notice is going for advanced I believe..... :D
But oh how we laugh now
Scuba-Doh!
27-07-07, 15:36
My name is on the list, though none of you know my full name so you can't check :p
it will be the last one on then ;)
Scuba-Doh!
27-07-07, 18:01
it will be the last one on then ;)
I'll give you a clue, it's closer to 1/3rd of the way down the list. :p
I think there is a bit of confusion over what thread is what. M25 is the neck thread, in the US they generally use 3/4"BSP neck threads. Whereas the M26 being discussed is the thread on the outlet which replaces the DIN outlet (which is a gauge thread, G5/8 if I remember). There is no obligation or reason for the US to go to the M26 thread for nitrox. I'd be amazed if they did. So anywhere which is influenced by US standard dive kit (pretty much the rest of the world outside of Europe) then European nitrox regulators will be useless.
Cheers,
Stuart
Glad I never took my regs to the US with me then. :confused:
I recieved this very interesting article writen by Mark Powell of www.dive-tech.co.uk (http://www.dive-tech.co.uk)
Mark releases various articles through Diving Nik Naks (http://www.divingniknaks.com/articles/diving_articles.php) and this was the latest to land in my inbox. It sums up the M26 fiasco quite nicely, of particular interest is feedback from the HSE :)
This article has been reproduced with Marks consent (top bloke).
When students are looking to buy twinsets, stages and regulators they often ask my advice about whether they should buy the standard DIN fitting or the new M26 fitting.
There has been a lot of concern that the introduction of M26 valves will force all UK divers to change their cylinder valves and regulators.
As there is a lot of debate about this I thought it would be useful to cover this subject.
All this discussion of changing to M26 arises due to a European standard that will come into force in August 2008. BS EN144-3 states that cylinders and valves used for mixtures including over 22% Oxygen must use an M26 Valve.
It is this new standard that is suggesting that for Nitrox we need to change from the existing DIN valves to M26 valves.
So the question is does the UK diving community have to follow this standard?
Well is there a safety reason why we need to do this? The HSE did not support the drafting or introduction of this standard on the basis that it would not increase safety. So it appears there is no safety reason for doing this.
Is there a legal reason why we need to do this? Well European standards are not laws, there is no reason why you must legally obey a standard. For example there are European standards on cylinder colouring with Nitrox cylinders having to have black and white coloured shoulders with a black N on the white quarters. The vast majority of divers and dive shops find it convenient to ignore this standard so why not any other standard. So there is no legal reason why we have to adopt M26 valves.
The only reason why we would have to adopt this is if all dive shops started on insisting on only putting Nitrox into cylinders that use M26 valves. This may happen as shops may mistakenly believe that they have to enforce this standard. They may cite HSE regulations – but remember the HSE did not support the introduction of this standard as their view was that it would not improve safety.
Your shop may cite meeting the standard as part of their risk assessment. BS EN144-3 is a standard but standards are not mandatory. Whilst they are one way to show that appropriate risk controls have been taken they are not the only way. The UK diving industry and the diver training agencies have followed a de-facto standard for avoiding the inadvertent breathing of the wrong mixture since the introduction of Nitrox in the 1990s. This de-facto standard has proved highly effective and so we take the view that a tried and tested de-facto standard has just as much, if not more, merit than an inconsistent EN standard.
So if a dive shop can show that they have suitable risk controls in place then there is no need to enforce M26 valves.
At Dive-Tech we use a lot of cylinders and regulators; we train people on the use of air, Nitrox and Trimix as well as teaching them how to blend various gasses. We will not be adopting M26 valves but need to show that we have suitable risk controls in place.
In order to justify this we have carried out a risk assessment which is included below.
In order to avoid the inadvertent breathing of the wrong mix Dive-Tech will continue to mitigate this risk by;
Ensuring that only cylinders in Oxygen service are used for Nitrox/Trimix
Ensuring that that 100% Oxygen is not put into cylinders marked as Breathing Air
Ensuring all breathing mixes are analysed before use
Marking all breathing mixes with contents and MOD
Recommending that Nitrox/Trimix cylinders are not loaned to those unqualified for their use.
Teaching the above procedures on all Nitrox and Trimix courses
The risk assessment was shown to my local HSE inspectors recently and they provided a number of minor comments which were incorporated into the statements above. They had no further comments to add to it – which is as close to agreement as I would ever expect to get.
If some shops start to insist on M26 valves and others do not then divers will start to vote with their feet.
So my view is that no, we don’t need to switch to M26 valves.
Have fun and dive safe
Mark
http://www.dive-tech.co.uk
http://www.divingniknaks.com
Excellent sound statement, I like Mark! Thanks for posting this Scott.